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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | History will probably look far more kindly on Pinochet that we do. Human rights abuses tend to fall into the historical abyss with time, and noble ideals seem to become yet more noble. His legacy is a positive one, but achieved through revolting means.
The point is well made above: he is basically a Fidel Castro for the right.
I didn't support his methods, and I've never been a supporter of the idea that ends justify means. I'd certainly never celebrate his death though, I do believe he, like every human being, had some positive attributes within him; any man's death diminishes us as humanity. |
what because you dont like a marxist leader being elected its positive to have a military coup? its funny how the democratic facade of conservatives slips away when faced with a democratic decision they dont like.
Also I was always under the impression castro was elected by his people and actually fought against us backed coups. I wouldnt pretend to be an expert on latin american politics though.
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"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 354
Location: Fyffe, Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
Also I was always under the impression castro was elected by his people and actually fought against us backed coups. I wouldnt pretend to be an expert on latin american politics though. |
Castro was not elected.
He took power in a "revolution" which was backed by the CIA.
He later turned on the CIA and Billy Empire and became a pawn of the KGB and the Soviet Union. Pinochet/Castro are flip sides on the same peso.
On January 8, 1959, Castro's army rolled victoriously into Havana. As news of the fall of Batista's government spread through Havana, The New York Times described the scene as one of jubilant crowds pouring into the streets and automobile horns honking. The black and red flag of the 26th of July Movement waved on automobiles and buildings. The atmosphere was chaotic. Soon after, the Castro-led revolutionary government embarked on a systematic purge of adversaries that saw the judicial and extra-judicial executions of thousands.
WP
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elidir
Nationalist
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Good riddance to the b****rd. It's a pity that he was not tried in court. Pinochet overthrew a democratically elected governement, whatever you think of Castro, he did not, it is therefore justifiable to reffer to Pinochet as a dictator as he did not win an election and his title "president" was meaningless. Incidentally, i'm not quite sure whether it is entirely accurate to call Allende a marxist, he certainly had socialists and marxists in his governement . The marxist tag seems to be used as a tacit approval for why the coup occurred (yes, in the cause of justification!) whereas it is beleived that the reason the CIA were involved was to preserve american copper industry monopoly in Chile which was the worlds biggest producer ; an industry, controlled by america, that Allende was going to nationalise.
"Pinochet/Castro are flip sides on the same peso."
Don't agree, castro at least initially, had overwhelming popular support, unlike Pinochet. How exactly was castro backed by the CIA? Records show that they were certainly monitoring the situation but I'm unaware of any military or financial backing for the Cuban revolutionaries (why revolution in inverted commas?) from the CIA. The CIA were involved in the training and arming of the mercenaries in the Bay of Pigs fiasco however. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | His legacy is a positive one... |
How do you draw that conclusion? I suppose it's arguable, as long as you discount the mass murder, torture, extortion, theft... |
Yes, and that's the point I'm making. For all his evils, he did save his country from Communism. Certainly doesn't make him a nice person of course.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | what because you dont like a marxist leader being elected its positive to have a military coup? its funny how the democratic facade of conservatives slips away when faced with a democratic decision they dont like. |
I've never had any sort of democratic facade, I don't believe human right can ever be subject to the whims of the masses.
I see democracy as a check on power. Castro clearly doesn't:
"The revolution has no time for elections. There is no more democratic government in Latin America than the revolutionary government."
| elidir wrote: | | Good riddance to the b****rd. It's a pity that he was not tried in court. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | Pinochet overthrew a democratically elected governement |
The basis of democracy is liberty. They were proposing very illiberal things. He was a dictator, that much is true. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2564
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: n |
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| Quote: | | Yes, and that's the point I'm making. For all his evils, he did save his country from Communism. |
No, he forcibly grabbed his ciountry from democracy in the name of foreign business interests. Allende was a well known opponent of soviet communism. Communists to this day criticise Allendes government as mere social reformers.
| Quote: | | The basis of democracy is liberty. They were proposing very illiberal things. |
That is just opinion and conjecture, the "illiberal" may have, to many supporters of the free market, placed curbs on private ownership of assets, but he didnt seize control for the workers, we are talking here about a centralist staist socialist economy, Allende was not Stalin or Mao.
The basis of democracy is the peoples will. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: Re: n |
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| Rinty wrote: | | No, he forcibly grabbed his ciountry from democracy in the name of foreign business interests. Allende was a well known opponent of soviet communism. Communists to this day criticise Allendes government as mere social reformers. |
I'd prefer to look at it as free trade rather than foreign business interests.
Oh, and I don't consider 'land reform' in the socialist model to be the acts of simple social reformers. Allende was heading the way of his good chum Castro, I do not doubt that, and he probably wanted to combine to promote agitation across South America.
He may have criticised soviet brands of communism, but was he not allied with, and receiving assistance from, the USSR? I seem to recall that link being exposed.
He was no hero, he was criticised by the Supreme Court of Chile for failing to uphold the law when it didn't suit him. Heroes don't tend to commit suicide in their palaces with their own armies outside acting on the orders of their parliament.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The basis of democracy is liberty. They were proposing very illiberal things. |
That is just opinion and conjecture, the "illiberal" may have, to many supporters of the free market, placed curbs on private ownership of assets, but he didnt seize control for the workers, we are talking here about a centralist staist socialist economy, Allende was not Stalin or Mao.
The basis of democracy is the peoples will. |
I think democracy requires liberty to function in any way at all; that much seems to me self-evident.
It would appear the Chilean legislature overwhelmingly agreed with me considering the August resolution preceding the coup. Both were bad leaders with, quite probably, fairly decent intentions. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2564
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: j |
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| Quote: | | I think democracy requires liberty to function in any way at all; that much seems to me self-evident. |
Liberty through democratic elections or liberty through the barrel of a gun. what sort of liberty did the 200,000 jailed opponenets of Pinochet get?
| Quote: | | Oh, and I don't consider 'land reform' in the socialist model to be the acts of simple social reformers |
The land reforms were introduced by his predecessor and allendes unity coalition stood on the ticket of keeping them, so what sort of liberty is overruling that at the barrel of a gun?
| Quote: | | Allende was heading the way of his good chum Castro, I do not doubt that, and he probably wanted to combine to promote agitation across South America. |
What's this - minority report? are we now saying that we can overthrow elected governments based on what some people think that they might end up like in the future?
| Quote: | | I'd prefer to look at it as free trade rather than foreign business interests |
you could, but his "crime" was not compensting the american companies who owned the copper industry. his predecessor nationalised 51% of the copper and left the remmaining 49% in the hands of the american companies - no coup? Allende's coalition of socialist and social reformers kept an almost identical programme to frei, popular enought to have the public vorte for it but made one major change - nationalising the foreign owned copper trade, result - CIA backed coup. You call it free trade if you want, but if it had been owned by chilean businessman id doubt that the coup would have happened. Frre trade is mantra of the americans while imposing embargoes and economic sanctions. It is usually only as "free" as washington wanted it to be.
| Quote: | | Both were bad leaders with, quite probably, fairly decent intentions |
one was elected, one wasn't |
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elidir
Nationalist
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi Rinty, I agree with your assertion regarding democracy; it is the will of the majority and nothing more whatever ideological component is added. It's strange how the will of the majority seems to be inadequate or even just wrong for some when it is against their self-interests as it was for pinochet and the US and how illegality of violence and torture can be justified because others are deemed to be making the wrong decisions or have the wrong ideas in, and regarding, their own countries and futures. I think the point has been made earlier regarding the double-standards applied to notions of free trade and the Cuban embargo for example.
The debate is peculiar; their is no argument in favour Pinochet without surrendering the democratic principle and replacing it with a justification of autocracy and dictatorship: this holds regardless of Allende's political position, his allies or friends; it holds also of course because of the majority who voted for his governement and who did not vote for Pinochet or the CIA. Apologists for Pinochet who claim a commitment to democracy are therefore breathtakingly hypocritical, profoundly undemocratic and political opportunists of the basest and most objectionably reactionary kind. |
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