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valencian
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Valencian Country
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Scots language |
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Hi, I have a few questions regarding scots language.
I have read something about it, and even looked at wikipedia's version (sco.wikipedia.org), and as in Valencia many people base their nationalism in language (which is threaten by spanish expansion) i'm surprised that no one use it over here.
So here are my questions...
1) Do you consider it a language or a dialect?
2) Is it widely spoken in Scotland?
3) What's the relation between nationalist movement and scots language.
Thank you very much in advanced for your answers 
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Babygael
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2635
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: ! |
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Hi, Scots are not engerlish.
Scotland as a conquered country (by the engerlish) speaks english with an accent .The accent comes from having to speak engerlish as a second language which after all this time has become the norm! Indeed in some cases you cannot tell a scotsman/woman from an engerlishman........one day this state of affairs will be history!!! No longer will our soverign country bear the hall marks of their conquerors.
Nationalist on the whole will stand by their culture.
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Ath-bheothachad
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1213
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1) Do you consider it a language or a dialect? |
Its a language, im sure some may say its a dialect of English, but then I could say English is a dialect of german.
| Quote: | | 2) Is it widely spoken in Scotland? |
I believe around 33% of the population speak Scots.
| Quote: | | 3) What's the relation between nationalist movement and scots language. |
I dont think there is one, theres no relationship between the movement of Gaelic either.
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Highlander
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: Re: ! |
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| Babygael wrote: | Hi, Scots are not engerlish.
Scotland as a conquered country (by the engerlish) speaks english with an accent .The accent comes from having to speak engerlish as a second language which after all this time has become the norm! Indeed in some cases you cannot tell a scotsman/woman from an engerlishman........one day this state of affairs will be history!!! No longer will our soverign country bear the hall marks of their conquerors.
Nationalist on the whole will stand by their culture. |
I live in Scotland and I never knew we were conquered! When did this happen? If we were conquered why do we have democratically elected members of parliament? Strange sort of conquering going on!Maybe it makes sense to babygael.
It down to linguists really on the dialect/languag thing, they are the experts on laguages some say it is a dialect others say a language. And then Avater comes along just to stir it up and say English is a dialect of German.
Isn't it also strange that it is called Scots when it was never spoken by the majority of Scots ever, it is very regional! Sounds like Scottish imperialism to me!
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macnumpty
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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It was originally called Inglis, as at that time it was basically a dialect of English. Then changes happened down South which didn't happen in Scotland, and vice versa, to the extent that one of the main sources for linguists on these matters, the SIL Ethnologue, has Scots as a separate language, albeit as part of a wider 'English' language family.
Highlander does have a point of sorts though: Scots doesn't appear to have taken in the Highlands, where the language choice is either English or Gaelic. 'Scots' is probably best considered as an umbrella term for Lallans, Doric and Ullans, the three main dialect groups.
As to the the dialect of German point, though, remember that that's how English started. Yesterday's dodgy German evolved into today's good English, just as yesterday's shaky English has evolved (and is still evolving) into today's good Scots.
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billalba
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 51
Location: London+Fife
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Highlander... 1707 springs to mind..
Unionists have their heads so far up themselves that they cannot see the truth.. |
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And then Avater comes along just to stir it up and say English is a dialect of German. |
The way I understand it "olde english" is a branch of the germanic language that developed over on the mainland and was brought over to Scotland and England by Germanic tribes, and developed into Scots in the lowland and northern isle areas of Scotland and developed into English down in England.
| Quote: | | Isn't it also strange that it is called Scots when it was never spoken by the majority of Scots ever, it is very regional! Sounds like Scottish imperialism to me! |
True enough, I suppose you only need to look to Ulster where Scots was also spoken and probably still is to an extent to see a bit of that.
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Scots language |
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| valencian wrote: | | 1) Do you consider it a language or a dialect? |
My friend, a linguist of some description, once told me with some air of authority that it was considered by him and others to be an English language. So a separate language from English, but clearly of the same family.
| Quote: | | 2) Is it widely spoken in Scotland? |
Not these days, no. It influences the English spoken in Scotland, but generally you'll only hear it in poetry etc.
| Quote: | | 3) What's the relation between nationalist movement and scots language. |
f**k all, pardon the French. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| billalba wrote: | Highlander... 1707 springs to mind..
Unionists have their heads so far up themselves that they cannot see the truth.. |
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One O'Clock Gun
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Inside a cannon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If we were conquered why do we have democratically elected members of parliament? |
Perhaps the term 'conquered' is meant more subtly?? Possibly meant as conquered in a cultural sense?
To give a modern analogy- in the way that some Asian countries see the growth of 'American' culture as 'taking over' their traditional culture (particularly with the younger generations??)
Just a thought.
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macnumpty
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
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Location: Exiled down south.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Avatar wrote: | | The way I understand it "olde english" is a branch of the germanic language that developed over on the mainland and was brought over to Scotland and England by Germanic tribes, and developed into Scots in the lowland and northern isle areas of Scotland and developed into English down in England. |
Olde English as we know it came over to England (and Southern Scotland) with the Germanic tribes who settled in the area from the 5th Cent. onwards, it then gained extra Nordic influences with the landing of the Vikings (the Vikings were almost wholly responsible for Norn in the Shetlands until it died out). The influence of England, especially in the South would probably have been responsible for the strength of English, and the development into Inglis, then Scots. We're almost certain that Scots was an offshoot of English that has since gone its own way, rather than a language that evolved at the same time, and it looks like the first major splits would have started around the 13th Cent., with the initial split actually at the Humber-Ribble Line in Northern England. Scots probably only really got going in its own right c. the 15th or 16th Cent.
| Quote: | | I suppose you only need to look to Ulster where Scots was also spoken and probably still is to an extent to see a bit of that. |
Yeh, it was even used in the Northern Ireland Transitional Assembly last week!
Yours,
A linguistic geek 
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valencian
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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Location: Valencian Country
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your answers I see nationalism hasn't used it as the main element of identity (here it has been used that way).
Does any of you speak it as mother tongue?
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Scots language |
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| valencian wrote: | Hi, I have a few questions regarding scots language.
I have read something about it, and even looked at wikipedia's version (sco.wikipedia.org), and as in Valencia many people base their nationalism in language (which is threaten by spanish expansion) i'm surprised that no one use it over here.
So here are my questions...
1) Do you consider it a language or a dialect?
2) Is it widely spoken in Scotland?
3) What's the relation between nationalist movement and scots language.
Thank you very much in advanced for your answers |
1) Modern Lowlanders mostly speak Scottish dialects of English rather than Scots, and Scottish writers, unless they are making a cultural/political point, mostly write in Standard English, with a greater or lesser amount of dialect being used for various reasons, such as reported speech or local vocabulary.
There has been some attempt to recreate some sort of ‘Scots language’ but this has mainly been a literary and political phenomenon, and such attempts to recreate a Scots language are not likely to succeed in the long run, partly because there is a lack of Scots words for many modern phenomena. However more problematic is the visible artificiality of such efforts, which preserve one-to-one translation in a way that gives the written Scots a parasitic relationship with English. This is of course because the writers are native English-speakers. If you contrast today’s synthetic Scots with the living Scots of the 16th century, the contrast is immediately obvious.
2) See above
3) There isn’t one, to give the brief answer.
Many European nationalist political movements were concerned with the defence of a linguistic culture (Flemish nationalism for example), but the SNP has never had a linguistic culture to defend. The only linguistic culture they could defend is Gaelic, but there are so few speakers that the idea is a non starter. Some members of the SNP do like to babble about the Scots language, but it is nothing anybody takes too seriously.
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| One O'Clock Gun wrote: | | Quote: | | If we were conquered why do we have democratically elected members of parliament? |
Perhaps the term 'conquered' is meant more subtly?? Possibly meant as conquered in a cultural sense?
To give a modern analogy- in the way that some Asian countries see the growth of 'American' culture as 'taking over' their traditional culture (particularly with the younger generations??)
Just a thought. |
I doubt it (that it was meant more subtly). Such nonsense is probably not worth even responding too, if people are gonnae whine away with their laughable victimhood fantasies there is really nothing you can say that will make them see reason, you are just wasting your own time that could be more profitably used on something else.
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garye
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| valencian wrote: | Thank you all for your answers I see nationalism hasn't used it as the main element of identity (here it has been used that way).
Does any of you speak it as mother tongue? |
Aye, me. |
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billalba
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 51
Location: London+Fife
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously we weren't conquered...but I dont know what you call our ports being blockaded an army on our border, trade war being threatened and not being able to trade with our historical trading partners in europe is???
i.e. In effect we were conquered!!!! |
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
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Posts: 1213
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, its a bit like claiming you have free will with someone holding a gun to your head and telling you to sign all your money over to them. Conqured we were.
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| billalba wrote: | Obviously we weren't conquered...but I dont know what you call our ports being blockaded an army on our border, trade war being threatened and not being able to trade with our historical trading partners in europe is???
i.e. In effect we were conquered!!!! |
Oh bollocks! We were nothing of the sort.
The Treaty of Union left the 3 pillars of Scottish life (Church, Law and Education) in the hands of Scots, which would not have been so in a conquered country.
The English got what they wanted, security on their northern border, and the Scots got what they wanted, access to English economic resources. The only thing Scotland lost was control of Foreign policy, which given the size and wealth of the country was not much to be regretted.
These victimhood fantasies about being 'conquered' or being a 'colony' are absolutely absurd.
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Avatar wrote: | | Yeah, its a bit like claiming you have free will with someone holding a gun to your head and telling you to sign all your money over to them. Conqured we were. |
You still have free will even if someone is doing as you say in the above scenario. The man still signs of his own free will, nobody makes him do anything.
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You still have free will even if someone is doing as you say in the above scenario. The man still signs of his own free will, nobody makes him do anything. |
not really when you consider that every biological feature is geared towards survival, its just an illusion of free will.
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