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IF Convenor · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject:

I'm sorry, I don't read any repentance in the Declaration of Arbroath. It shouts defiance from start to finish.

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RFM · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:

It is certainly true that most readers fasten on the one paragraph talking about freedom as long as one hundred of us are alive, but it also gives Bruce a ringing endorsement:
"But from these countless evils we have been set free, by the help of Him Who though He afflicts yet heals and restores, by our most tireless Prince, King and Lord, the Lord Robert. He, that his people and his heritage might be delivered out of the hands of our enemies, met toil and fatigue, hunger and peril, ", then goes on:

"Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King;".
May it please you to admonish and exhort the King of the English, who ought to be satisfied with what belongs to him since England used once to be enough for seven kings or more, to leave us Scots in peace, who live in this poor little Scotland, beyond which there is no dwelling-place at all, and covet nothing but our own. "

"Then rouse the Christian princes who for false reasons pretend that they cannot go to help of the Holy Land because of wars they have on hand with their neighbours. The real reason that prevents them is that in making war on their smaller neighbours they find quicker profit and weaker resistance. But how cheerfully our Lord the King and we too would go there if the King of the English would leave us in peace,"

As far as defiance, that would be hard to reconcile with these words:
" and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet." (In the preamble address to the Pope)
and "To conclude, we are and shall ever be, as far as duty calls us, ready to do your will in all things, as obedient sons to you as His Vicar; and to Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit the maintenance of our cause, casting our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought."

I have taken the translated text as is published on Wikapedia, English version at the University of Edinburgh.

IF Convenor · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:

It was a diplomatic letter written in diplomatic language. Forget all the filial greetings, etc. as those are just the way these things were written. It's a bit like someone writing "your servant" or even "yours" before signing, it's just a convention.

Take a look at the words " But if your Holiness puts too much faith in the tales the English tell and will not give sincere belief to all this, nor refrain from favouring them to our prejudice, then the slaughter of bodies, the perdition of souls, and all the other misfortunes that will follow, inflicted by them on us and by us on them, will, we believe, be surely laid by the Most High to your charge."

This is unbelievably forthright and defiant. The Scots are telling the Pope that if he doesn't stop siding with the English any future blood spilled will be on his hands and he will have to answer to God for it. No repentance there.
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RFM · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject:

There is no question that it was a diplomatic document, but that was my original point. What did it ask of the Pope? As the document puts it, that he should not listen to everything the English tell him, that they have good cause on their side and King Robert after all has to continue the leadership or they will find a replacement. That certainly suggests that whoever ultimately emerged as King of Scotland, the Papal blessing of the coronation, which was the necessary prerequisite to devine right, would be needed. They certainly did not need his permission to launch the wars of independence and it was unlikely that he could do anything to stop them; but he could withhold the imprimatur. It also sends an indirect message to King Phillip of France that they could make common cause.

Blackleaf · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject:

IF Convenor · Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:26 am Post subject:

Robert Bruce was excommunicated and only the Pope could reverse that. Furthermore, England had been thoroughly beaten in 1314 and Scots armies pillaged the north of England at will, but the English refused to accept defeat, largely because of the continued backing of the Pope in their war against the excommunicated Bruce. The Scots were sick of it and wanted their King and their victory recognised.

Scotland and France were in formal alliance (The Auld Alliance) anyway and there was no need to drop hints about making common cause with the French.
_________________
The man o independent mind,
He looks and laughs at aa that.

RFM · Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:52 am Post subject:

That may well be all true, but John XXII was not a man that one approached with proclaimations of the right to freedom and the right to choose your leaders. I speak specifically of his support for the Bull Unam Sanctum and his opinions supporting the suppression of the Templars.

My observation about the message to King Phillip was that it was intended as support for a secular view concerning John XXII not against Edward, as it was well known that Phillip did not intend to take directions from Pope John regardless of Unam Sanctum. In that sense the declaration of human freedom and choosing one's leaders would certainly make sense and pose a subtle warning to Pope John that if he did not forgive and take the Scots back into the fold they might consider other options..