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Niall
Nationalist
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Location: Cairnbulg
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 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: Ten Good reasons for Independence |
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A Chairadean mhath.
I have read the various opinions of Trolls and detracters on this forum and would like to reprint a leaflet I wrote for Siol-nan-gaidheal last year. I list the ten most common questions or objections raised by brainwashed unionists in Scotland:
Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country.
Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited
Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services.
Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK.
Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions.
Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre.
Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there.
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Come on now debate and refute these figures if you can........
'S Mise le meas
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence |
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Whether these figures are true or not is irrelevant to me, because the wealth of an independent Scotland would not be significantly different to that today. Besides, since when should an issue as important as national sovereignty be decided by economic benefit?
I object to independence on a more general level. The Union between Scotland and England has produced one of the world's great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. Although the two countries are bound together politically, no one is ever going to pretend that the Scots are Englishmen! Scotland has still managed to maintain an identifiable culture, and already possesses many badges of statehood such as national sports teams and bank notes.
Especially now that it has a devolved Parliament, Scotland has great political and cultural autonomy whilst still being able to take advantage of being part of the UK. Considering that both sides can find satisfaction in this arrangement, why should there be a change?
I also that the way the SNP conducts itself shows that Scots nationalism is not a developed force, and that simple xenophobia is the basis for many members. The way the SNP describes independence as a panacea for all ills, whether it be the amalgamation of regiments or altering fishing quotas shows that Scots nationalism is a reactionary force, and not nearly as progressive as its proponenets claim. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldn’t survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP.
Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason – they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we’re not. It’s not economically viable.
Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil
Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland’s armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don’t have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies.
Question six – Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures – it should be noted you’ll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me.
Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ‘ten points’.
And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I’m sure it’ll be well managed though… even if it is a total disaster.
Interestingly enough, Shadowman makes some good points. The number of grassroots Nationalists I have heard making comments about the English that'd make an IRA member blush is rather incredible. Not to mention the Labour provost in a local authority area I once lived in had both tyres slashed and windows bricked... and guess what was tied around that brick: an SNP leaflet.
For all the swaveness and pseudo-sophistication of the high ranks of the SNP, they are disguising support by a great deal of undesirables who would be kicked out of most political parties. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence |
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| Shadowman wrote: | Whether these figures are true or not is irrelevant to me, because the wealth of an independent Scotland would not be significantly different to that today. Besides, since when should an issue as important as national sovereignty be decided by economic benefit?
I object to independence on a more general level. The Union between Scotland and England has produced one of the world's great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. Although the two countries are bound together politically, no one is ever going to pretend that the Scots are Englishmen! Scotland has still managed to maintain an identifiable culture, and already possesses many badges of statehood such as national sports teams and bank notes. |
That makes a nice change. Most of the time the Unionist argument is based on economic terms. IMO independence will create two or three of the worlds great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. I don't believe that Great Britain is great. Scotland has retain some level of culture and independent institutions despite the Union, not because of it.
| Shadowman wrote: | | Especially now that it has a devolved Parliament, Scotland has great political and cultural autonomy whilst still being able to take advantage of being part of the UK. Considering that both sides can find satisfaction in this arrangement, why should there be a change? |
There should be a change because devolution is so weak, it fails to address the key problems that led to devolution in the first place. The independence movement is NOT isolationist. Scotland can have a very healthy relationship with the rest-of-the-UK that can benefit all parties whilst also repatriating more of the powers required to govern herself. If you can accept devolution and cultural autonomy, do you not think that it might be appropriate for Holyrood to have control over broadcasting.
| Shadowman wrote: | | I also that the way the SNP conducts itself shows that Scots nationalism is not a developed force, and that simple xenophobia is the basis for many members. The way the SNP describes independence as a panacea for all ills, whether it be the amalgamation of regiments or altering fishing quotas shows that Scots nationalism is a reactionary force, and not nearly as progressive as its proponenets claim. |
Do you have any examples of this? I'm a member of the SNP and in my branch I can't think of a single member who I would describe as xenophobic. In fact I am probably the most 'fundamentalist' of the members. The SNP doesn't say that independence in itself will cure all ills. They say that independence will allow a much more focussed political environment in which we are more likely to be able to tackle those ills. My support for independence is completely progressive. If it was clear that the people of Scotland were better off in the Union, the SNP would disappear over night. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hopefully Niall will answer your points on the financial and oil matters.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland’s armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don’t have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
You are assuming that there will be no cooperation between Scotland and whatever other states emerge on the Island. Of course there will. There will be a common defence strategy that will be agreed that will be just as adequate as the present UK defence provisions.
| Aventinian wrote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I’m sure it’ll be well managed though… even if it is a total disaster. |
What's your basis for saying Scotland is more inclined toward socialism?
| Aventinian wrote: | | Interestingly enough, Shadowman makes some good points. The number of grassroots Nationalists I have heard making comments about the English that'd make an IRA member blush is rather incredible. Not to mention the Labour provost in a local authority area I once lived in had both tyres slashed and windows bricked... and guess what was tied around that brick: an SNP leaflet. |
Are you really saying that you think the Scottish nationalist movement is more virulent than that of the IRA!? Like I said above, I'm a member of the SNP and have never heard anything like that at all. Do you have a reference to an article about the Labour provost getting his windows smashed in? |
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Niall
Nationalist
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Aventian a charaid.
Seeing as you choose to mock your own unionist propaganda, I shall attempt to explain it in simple terms that even a toddler can understand.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldna survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP. |
However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we're not. It's not economically viable. |
The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil |
How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions!
I Wrote | Quote: | Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland's armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don't have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question six Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures it should be noted you'll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me. |
I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe's top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ten points. |
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Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters.
Finally Independenc is coming and it will soon become unstoppable hence the paniced propaganda. You had better get used to the Idea now and be prepared to make it work as I shall be doing.
'S Mise le meas
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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wallacesclaymore
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | Aventian a charaid.
Seeing as you choose to mock your own unionist propaganda, I shall attempt to explain it in simple terms that even a toddler can understand.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldna survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP. |
However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we're not. It's not economically viable. |
The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil |
How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions!
I Wrote | Quote: | Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland's armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don't have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question six Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures it should be noted you'll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me. |
I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe's top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ten points. |
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Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters.
Finally Independenc is coming and it will soon become unstoppable hence the paniced propaganda. You had better get used to the Idea now and be prepared to make it work as I shall be doing.
'S Mise le meas
Niall. |
And for my money, the points made here by Niall do in fact make coherent, and perfect sense.
Aventinian, unlike the usual rhetoric of "thats all crap, lies and bullshit" you ordanarily come out with, via implied and veilled words, this does make sense and if one were an impartial viewer merely peering in for a wee look, I'm pretty certain it would seem this way too.
The truth is, you are a unionist. You believe in that and that is the ONLY thing you believe. Your mind is closed and you have no real interest in discussing the mere notion of independence.
I refer to some points made in another post you made about human nature etc...for YEARS (HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS) we were unevolved. We went round clubbing each other to death and grunting...then we learned to make swords and killed eachother this way...nowadays, we dont. WE EVOLVED..things CHANGED....somewhere along the line, in the last 300 years, things have changed. And I believe, the very idea of independence should be PROPERLY and OPENLY investigated and thrashed out.
This is known as entertaining an idea that could be POSSIBLE...something you seem sadly incapable of doing.
_________________
SNP x 3 .... 3rd May 2007 |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism. |
I don't believe you'll find many 'Unionists' (I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism).
As you have correctly identified, even the UK makes a loss on on many occasions and does have debts. And as I pointed out, Scottish independence would not be impossible simply because of economic factors. No one is saying that and thus your 'unionist argument' was not a unionist argument at all, it was a convenient straw man made by yourself to shoot down.
| Quote: | | The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury. |
Personification of the UK treasury? That's the way think if you're looking to see the inside of one of the Windsor Group of Relaxing Health Spas...
If you think the money from the oil reserves are not being exploited fully, I strongly advise you make your case for what should be done better and send it to Gordon Brown. No doubt he'll be very interested as he does seem to be pulling out all the stops to get money these days.
I certainly don't think things could be handled better by an inexperienced Scottish government.
| Quote: | | How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions! |
Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us.
| Quote: | Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot. |
A militia, eh? Can I assume that you then support the repeal of the gun laws? I'd probably support you on that but otherwise I imagine a militia of single-shot rifles, double-barrelled shotguns and mussel-firing (well, the powder for these actually requires an explosives licence... or so I've head) handguns would be rather ineffective.
The IRA could've been wiped out without too much bother by the British forces. The fact was that it politics that prevented it. Ditto for Vietnam. While 'Nam held out well against the Americans, it is hardly Scotland.
Incidently, with our disgraceful rates of obesity and ill health caused by our lifestyles, I don't reckon our militia would be much good over long distances... like to the end of the road.
Anyway I didn't see you as the sort to stand up and swear to protect Her Majesty from all Her enemies...
| Quote: | | I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards. |
I recommend you vote for another party then.
I wrote:[quote]Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
| Quote: | | Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds. |
I can't say I read the Record, but if you've got any links to online versions of these articles I wouldn't object to a look.
| Quote: | You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters. |
Oh God no, we're too boring for extremism these days. What I fear most is a slow, blind walk away from common sense. After all, the worst sort of oppression is by those people who believe they are doing it for your own good. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| wallacesclaymore wrote: | | Aventinian, unlike the usual rhetoric of "thats all crap, lies and bullshit" you ordanarily come out with, via implied and veilled words, this does make sense and if one were an impartial viewer merely peering in for a wee look, I'm pretty certain it would seem this way too. |
To be honest, anyone who presents the position of their opponent will completely cloud it with their own prejudices. Many of these things, presented as 'Unionist' arguments would not be argued by anyone with half a mind, never mind anyone who had a decent grounding in politics or economics.
| Quote: | | The truth is, you are a unionist. You believe in that and that is the ONLY thing you believe. Your mind is closed and you have no real interest in discussing the mere notion of independence. |
I'm actually a Libertarian, although one can never fully condense ones beliefs by a few simple labels. That is where my fundamental opposition to Nationalism and governments running at arbitary levels comes from.
| Quote: | | This is known as entertaining an idea that could be POSSIBLE...something you seem sadly incapable of doing. |
I too have my utopias, but they are forward looking, not what I consider backwards looking. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | I don't believe you'll find many 'Unionists' (I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism).
As you have correctly identified, even the UK makes a loss on on many occasions and does have debts. And as I pointed out, Scottish independence would not be impossible simply because of economic factors. No one is saying that and thus your 'unionist argument' was not a unionist argument at all, it was a convenient straw man made by yourself to shoot down. |
I use the term to mean anyone who believes in retaining the Union. Most 'Unionists' I know are not 'Brits', but are as (if not more) nationalistic than myself. They do vote for parties wishing to remain in the Union because they believe it is in the best interests of the country economically. That is my experience anyway.
| Aventinian wrote: | If you think the money from the oil reserves are not being exploited fully, I strongly advise you make your case for what should be done better and send it to Gordon Brown. No doubt he'll be very interested as he does seem to be pulling out all the stops to get money these days.
I certainly don't think things could be handled better by an inexperienced Scottish government. |
Brown appears to be taking a short term view at the moment. Recent tax increases and previous windfall taxes have generated revenue at the expense of investment. Who knows how the Scottish government will handle it. I would suggest that the oil industry being so key to the Scottish economy (rather than a cash cow for the London exchequer) would add a focus to ensure that the industry was supported. Scottish politicians are as likely to have as much knowledge as English ones regarding the oil industry. More important will be how willing they are to consult with the industry itself.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us. |
But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | To be honest, anyone who presents the position of their opponent will completely cloud it with their own prejudices. Many of these things, presented as 'Unionist' arguments would not be argued by anyone with half a mind, never mind anyone who had a decent grounding in politics or economics. |
Aventinian, Niall didn't just post the 10 Q&A's for your benefit. AFAIK, they were originally posted on another forum after frequent posts made in support of the Union addressing the above points. They may not be the reasons you support the continuation of the Union, but they are representative of why many people do. Apart from scaremongering about the state wanting to rake around your house and an unfounded fear of an isolationist socialist state, I've not heard too many arguments from you as to why Scotland should remain in the Union. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us. |
But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss. |
That's still an unfair slice of the pie though.
Since I am such a believer in private education, healthcare etc I will extract damn-near nowt from the privy coffers of the state in my lifetime. I will also probably have more extracted from me in my lifetime than the majority of my fellow Britons. The very fact that you believe in taxation assumes that you believe in aiding others and living in a society.
I may be largely anti-taxation, but it is on a personal level. You see, I have individual consciousness. 'Scotland' does not. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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You haven't been reading this thread very closely then. While I am operating on a strictly defensive basis (a case for the Union would be so much more straining on my typing than a defence of it against Nationalism) Shadowman has placed forward a number of fairly decent arguments.
By the by, was these 10 Questions and Answered sourced from the Siol Nan Gaeli...etc? I believe Niall has said he has links with this organisation...
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Niall
Nationalist
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | By the by, was these 10 Questions and Answered sourced from the Siol Nan Gaeli...etc? I believe Niall has said he has links with this organisation... |
Aventian a charaid.
I wrote these ten questions and answers. They were posted on the Siol-nan-Gaidheal website for general distribution because the SnG site takes thousands of hits every day and is probably the most visited Scottish nationalist website.
I am a long standing member of the Siol, So what? Its a Historiacal and Cultural organisation that puts its money where its mouth is, so if you have something to say, Say it!
'S Mise
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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Niall
Nationalist
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Aventian a charaid.
You wrote: | Quote: | | A militia, eh? Can I assume that you then support the repeal of the gun laws? I'd probably support you on that but otherwise I imagine a militia of single-shot rifles, double-barrelled shotguns and mussel-firing (well, the powder for these actually requires an explosives licence... or so I've head) handguns would be rather ineffective. |
Firearms don't kill people. people kill people. The present firearms laws have ensured that the only people carrying and using firearms are the criminal fraternity who tend to despise our laws anyway. I am sure the Swiss system of militia members having their personal weapons kept at home would work equally as well in Scotland. And a single shot target rifle kills just as effectively as any automatic weapon. Scotland is ideally suited to guerilla warfare so any invader would suffer disproportionately high casualties.
| Quote: | | The IRA could've been wiped out without too much bother by the British forces. The fact was that it politics that prevented it. Ditto for Vietnam. While 'Nam held out well against the Americans, it is hardly Scotland. |
I served two tours in the six counties and I cannot agree that the IRA could have been wiped out. Not unless you proposed the nuking of both the north and south of Ireland?
| Quote: | | Incidently, with our disgraceful rates of obesity and ill health caused by our lifestyles, I don't reckon our militia would be much good over long distances... like to the end of the road. |
So you believe the over hyped reports about obesity in the press? Get real, you find very few overweight stalkers, crofters, farmers and manual workers who make up the vast majority of the TA.
| Quote: | | Anyway I didn't see you as the sort to stand up and swear to protect Her Majesty from all Her enemies... |
I am a son of the croft, and in my teens I worked on a farm first as an orra loon and then dairyloon. Work on a farm is arduous and poorly paid, so I joined the RAF basically to get a better rate of pay (£3/15/6d for 48 hours basic to £6/18/9d per week for less hours.) and a good education. Defending Queen and Country was the last thing on my mind. Most servicemen are in the same position, they are economic recruits, so don't point the finger, have you been a member of the armed forces?
'S mise
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | Firearms don't kill people. people kill people. The present firearms laws have ensured that the only people carrying and using firearms are the criminal fraternity who tend to despise our laws anyway. I am sure the Swiss system of militia members having their personal weapons kept at home would work equally as well in Scotland. And a single shot target rifle kills just as effectively as any automatic weapon. Scotland is ideally suited to guerilla warfare so any invader would suffer disproportionately high casualties. |
I think you'd have a hard time persuading the people that weapons distribution should be so liberal. Incidently, under the present system there are thousands of people in Scotland who legally and responsibly use firearms.
I'd hate to try and mount a defence against an invading force with a single-shot rifle. Imagine two of them came a-knocking... that'd be me fucked.
| Quote: | | I served two tours in the six counties and I cannot agree that the IRA could have been wiped out. Not unless you proposed the nuking of both the north and south of Ireland? |
Far be it for me to call into question your soldiering abilities, but a few notable figures from the SAS seem to disagree with your assessment.
| Quote: | | So you believe the over hyped reports about obesity in the press? Get real, you find very few overweight stalkers, crofters, farmers and manual workers who make up the vast majority of the TA. |
Do you believe that the TA, at its present numbers, would be sufficient for your militia?
| Quote: | | I am a son of the croft, and in my teens I worked on a farm first as an orra loon and then dairyloon. Work on a farm is arduous and poorly paid, so I joined the RAF basically to get a better rate of pay (£3/15/6d for 48 hours basic to £6/18/9d per week for less hours.) and a good education. Defending Queen and Country was the last thing on my mind. Most servicemen are in the same position, they are economic recruits, so don't point the finger, have you been a member of the armed forces? |
I have indeed - however before you ask like most other forum-goers will, I am not willing to provide details as to when, where, how etc in an attempt to hold on to my semi-anonymity. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Quote: | | But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss. |
That's still an unfair slice of the pie though. |
It depends on how you treat Scotland. As just another region of the UK, then you are right. As a country that is a member of a Union, it's not unfair. Or at least we would have to look at other benefits to account for it. Just as the UK treats the EU.
| Aventinian wrote: | Since I am such a believer in private education, healthcare etc I will extract damn-near nowt from the privy coffers of the state in my lifetime. I will also probably have more extracted from me in my lifetime than the majority of my fellow Britons. The very fact that you believe in taxation assumes that you believe in aiding others and living in a society.
I may be largely anti-taxation, but it is on a personal level. You see, I have individual consciousness. 'Scotland' does not. |
Again, this is where I feel you are being very naive. There is a national identity within Scotland and what you might even call a national consciousness. You might not buy into it, but it does exist. As I've said before, even almost all the people I know who vote for Unionist parties appreciate this and embrace it.
| Quote: | | You haven't been reading this thread very closely then. While I am operating on a strictly defensive basis (a case for the Union would be so much more straining on my typing than a defence of it against Nationalism) Shadowman has placed forward a number of fairly decent arguments. |
I didn't see any decent arguments from Shadowman. They might have been decent if any of his assumptions had been true, but they aren't. I responded to his post at the time. Please feel free to start a new thread making a case for the Union. |
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