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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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 Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: Edinburg |
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First, I must ask if there is a history section here. That is where I should be with my questions but I do not find one.
Now, I am asking for another education.
1. What is the Scots Gaelic name for Edinburg?
2. Can someone please tell me how Edinburg came to that name?
Thank you. Hazel
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
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No history section here. Might be a good idea though.
1. It's Edinburgh in english, Embra in Scots and Dùn Èideann in Gàidhlig.
2. It's originally a Welsh name, I'll see if I can find a link. Or Abieuan migth know... |
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: Edinburg |
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| SLG wrote: | No history section here. Might be a good idea though.
1. It's Edinburgh in english, Embra in Scots and Dùn Èideann in Gàidhlig.
2. It's originally a Welsh name, I'll see if I can find a link. Or Abieuan migth know... |
Tapadh leat. Thank you. Hazel |
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Maol.Chaluim
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 418
Location: Glaschu
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).
2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh |
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: Edinburg |
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | 1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).
2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh |
Thank you. I'll follow up on the Northumbrian king. I was reminded earlier that it was originally Welsh. It was not called Welsh back then but.... This all started when I noticed that Caerdydd (Cardiff) and Caeredin (Edinburg) was spelled so similarly.
Caer, in Welsh, can mean citadel, wall, fort or castle. We surely get wide choices, don't we? Hazel |
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Abieuan
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 480
Location: Carrick
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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The link that Maol.Chaluim provided agrees with what i thought, that Edinburgh is not named after Edwin of Northumbria.
It had been a thriving city for centuaries before him.
Caeredin seems to be the modern Welsh name, in all the quotes from ancient documents that i have seen it is always called Din Eidyn.
There are placenames in southern Scotland begining with Car, most of these will come from Caer.
Edinburgh, however, was larger - it was the capitol of the Kingdom of Lothian.
I wonder if Din is an older form of Dinas - the modern Welsh word for city? |
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: Edinburg |
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| Abieuan wrote: | The link that Maol.Chaluim provided agrees with what i thought, that Edinburgh is not named after Edwin of Northumbria.
It had been a thriving city for centuaries before him.
Caeredin seems to be the modern Welsh name, in all the quotes from ancient documents that i have seen it is always called Din Eidyn.
There are placenames in southern Scotland begining with Car, most of these will come from Caer.
Edinburgh, however, was larger - it was the capitol of the Kingdom of Lothian.
I wonder if Din is an older form of Dinas - the modern Welsh word for city? |
I was wondering that about Din and Dinas also. I know somebody whom I can ask tomorrow. Meanwhile, thanks to all of you for education. Doesn't Edinburg go back to the time of Yr Gododdin, that long Welsh poem? Hazel |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH
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Hazel
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: EdinburgH |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH |
Oops  Hazel |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | 1. "Embra" is certainly a coloquial or slang word for Edinburgh, but I doubt it's Scots. See (2).
2. Don't know about the "Edin" part (I've read that it might have something to do with a Northumbrian king, and also that it has Brythonic Celtic origins), but the "burgh" part is a Scots word for a unit of local government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgh |
That depends what you mean by Scots. I would say it is definitely Modern Scots.
The Scots dictionary here (www.dsl.ac.uk) gives Embro as Edinburgh. With references dating back to Burns in 1798. The also mention Embra, but with more recent references. Another online Scots dictionary (www.scots-online.org) here gives Embro and Auld Reekie. It seems to be a contraction of Edinburgh to Enburgh and Emburgh to Embro.
I have the Welsh (or Brythonic) being Din Eidyn, and predating the Northumbrians, so ruling out anything to do with King Edwin. Eiddyn seems to come from a personal name. I think din was the same as the Gaelic dùn meaning fort.
There is a really interesting website Ancient Lothian (www.cyberscotia.com/ancient-lothian/) that goes into some of this. You can also read a translation of Y Gododdin. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: Re: EdinburgH |
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| Hazel wrote: | | rs_azzuri wrote: | | still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH |
Oops Hazel |
Don't worry about it Hazel.
Just wondering how you pronounce it given your spelling?
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Abieuan
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 480
Location: Carrick
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that link, SLG,
The Gaels/Picts named it as they saw it; Dùn Aodainn - the fortress on the brow of the hill.
This is the translation given in several books, but is only the Gaelic name, not it's original meaning.
It is interesting how the modern Gaelic name is much closer to Eidyn. |
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: EdinburgH |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | Hazel wrote: | | rs_azzuri wrote: | | still missing that h at the end..........EdinburgH |
Oops Hazel |
Don't worry about it Hazel.
Just wondering how you pronounce it given your spelling? |
How I pronounce it? I suppose I'd have to say that the 'h' is silent on my tongue. Considering that I cannot master "ch", must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation? Please!!!!
By the way, as long as we are on that subject, can anyone here tell me if the Scots Gaelic 'ch' is pronounced the same as the Welsh 'ch'? I had a friend who said no but he did not actually speak either language. He spoke German and said the Scots Gaelic 'ch' was the same as that in German. He did not feel the Welsh 'ch' was the same.
Hazel |
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Abieuan
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 480
Location: Carrick
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation? |
It is pronunced "u", Edinburu.
Burgh is not a Scottish or Celtic word, it came with the invaders.
The Scottish ch is the same as the Welsh, but not pronounced as strongly - usually.
It may be similar to the German, isn't that odd that the Angles/Saxons came from Germany but have lost their own tongue and still call the language English? |
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: Edinburg |
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| Abieuan wrote: | | Quote: | | must I master 'gh'? Does it really have a different pronunciation? |
It is pronunced "u", Edinburu.
Burgh is not a Scottish or Celtic word, it came with the invaders.
The Scottish ch is the same as the Welsh, but not pronounced as strongly - usually.
It may be similar to the German, isn't that odd that the Angles/Saxons came from Germany but have lost their own tongue and still call the language English? |
Edinburu? That would be similar to our towns which end in 'ough'. I cannot think of one right now but we do have them. It would be as thoug Edinburg were spelled "Edinborough" or "Edinboro". Interesting.
The strength of the 'ch' is probably what my friend was referring to then. Thank you.
Languages and their development makes an interesting study. Did you know that, at one time, there were two distinct languages in England called English? One came with the invading Anglo-Saxons; the other with the invading Danes or, some say, the Danish Vikings.
Then, there is King James VI & I with the "polite English".
I'd best stop before I write an epistle. Oidhchc mhath. (Is that right?) Hazel |
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Chookie
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Southern Pictavia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Close, but no coconut..........
You should have typed Oidhche mhath
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Hazel
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Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: Oidhche |
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| Chookie wrote: | Close, but no coconut..........
You should have typed Oidhche mhath |
Thank you. I thought my penmanship was awry. I should type instead of writing.
Hazel |
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Abieuan
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 480
Location: Carrick
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | there were two distinct languages in England called English? One came with the invading Anglo-Saxons |
The Angles and Saxons had different dialects too.
The Scots language of the lowlands is derived from Nothumbrian English, spoken by the Angles.
After the English kingdoms were united, and the centre of power established in the south of England, the Northumbrian dialect began to decline in northern England, but not Scotland where the Scots dialect was still the language of royalty and of the court. |
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Blackleaf
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: Lancashire
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's originally a Welsh name |
The word "burgh" comes from the Saxon word for "town."
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Blackleaf wrote: | | Quote: | | It's originally a Welsh name |
The word "burgh" comes from the Saxon word for "town." |
Well spotted Blackleaf. Quite sensible really when you consider that 'Edinburgh' is the Anglo-Saxon translation of the original. Just as 'Dùn Eideann' is the Scots Gaelic translation. |
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