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Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

Din Eiddyn was the name of the Fort on the Rock. It was P-Celtic (or Brythonic) as is spoken by the Welsh of today. Welsh or Wales was Saxon for "foreigner" ... not a word I would use. Therefore British is more correct.
Traprain Law for instance is Dun Peldyr, in Brit = Fort of the Spear ... and Arthurs Seat is Ard-na Seghe (Height of the Arrow) or Ard-na Sidhe (Height of the Little People).
It is thought Eiddyn was a personal name and was a grandfather of Cunedda, who moved to found Gwynedd in North Wales. Eiddyn may have been an appointee of the Romans in the 4th Century, as was the king of Dun Breattain (Dumbarton) on the Clyde.
Later pronunciation with a little racial mixing with Scots and Angles changed this to Dun Edin ... then Dunedin. When Edwin of Northumbria (c 616) got control and gave the market-town his patronage, it became known (allegedly) as Edwin's burgh.
My own theory is that it was the evolving Scots language gave it the final name through linguistic corruption ... Dun Edin was on a rock with a long tail of a hill down to what is now Canongate. This hill was called a brae ... and in language useage of the time ... it would have been Dun Edin's brae .... and through successive centuries finalising as Edinburgh around 1050 when it became the capital of the last Celtic King, Malcolm Canmore.

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

*sighs* You really have to spell it out for some people, don't you?

The linguistic changes that took place would ensure Dunedin's Brae became Edin's Brae, then Edinbrae, from which it was Anglified to Edinburgh ... Edwin really had nothing to do with it ... and that can be seen in today's modern Scots vernacular of "Embrae" (in Glasgow anyway). How this will develop in the future can be extrapolated by listening to how people speak. Always has been throughout history, regardless of the Anglicisation, gentrification and standardisation that went on to create The Mither Tongue.

As to the Scots themselves, I am evolving a theory that they were invited (not invaders) by the ailing British Damnonii of the Clyde valley and the Romans, to set up a new kingdom at DalnRiata, which would be a buffer state against the Pictish depradations, as was Guotoddin (Gododdin-Lothian) and Areclut (The Clyde).
These lands were also called Venedotia by the 2nd century Romans ... later known as the "lost province" when they retreated behind Hadrian's Wall, abandoning the Antonine frontier. Eventually the Scots would intermarry with the Brits, Angles and Picts to form Scotland, with its King in the person of the son of Alpin of the Scots ... Caioneach (Kenneth I) MacAlpin.

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

Edinburgh is NOT a "Welsh" name ... modern "Welsh" has developed over centuries from a version of Celtic speech called P-Brythonic, which was shared in Cornwall and Brittany in historic times. The Iris and Scots variant is Q-Brythonic, hence Welsh/British MAP compared to Scotto-Irish MAC.

The Picti inhabited the lands from the Forth-Clyde valley to the North lands ... until the advent of the Scots and their first kingdom at DalnRiata.

While no-one can deny that Din Eiddyn is a British name ... it is highly probable that the Castle Rock has had a settlement on it since well before the Celtic Heroic Age ... as did Arthurs Seat with its several settlemants perched above the farming riggs. Who knows who was the first ... cvertainly not the Picts, though the bottom line is that so little is known, that most Pictophiles need to make huge leaps and prodigious interpretations of the "facts" to state their views. The explanations migrate to this core of "facts" in a futile effort to explain this mysterious people.

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

Prydain was the much later "Welsh" as in The Mabinogion. It was derived from the Greek Pretanoi ... which the Romans changed (as most invaders do) the name to Brittaniarum. Prydain or Prettyn is the "P" Celtic version of "Cruthainn" and it is almost certain the Cruithne WERE the Picts of legend. The Sons of Cruithne were probably never a very large tribe, though before the coming of the Celts (around 500bce) they were spread very thinly all over Clas Myrrdin ... another poetic name for Britain.

Not arguing against you ... just trying to point you in a better direction.

J'ai un PHD dans l'histoire, se spécialisant dans l'histoire antique.

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

There's as many theories as there were tribesmen!!! And they're still coming out of the woodwork. I have formulated my own and a colleague and I are putting together a book on Dark Age Britain. Been at it 3 years now ... another 2 and we'll be ready to go I think. There are just so many "unknowns" and you get so many others muddying the waters.

I could suggest a hundred books, but Alcock still lays down the real spadework. Cunliffe, in recent years, has written some good general books on pre-Roman Britain. Chadwick is still the outstanding name on the Celtic kingdoms ... and there are so many authors in the last 10 yrs brought out Arthurian books.

Your best bet is to google and then check out Amazon. I was lucky to get a book two years ago from the States (out of print now). The British Library is also the best repository.

It's also important to have a sense of humour in Ancient studies because the ancient writers certainly weren't above pulling future readers' legs!

I specialise in Ancient History in a general, but into Brit Hist at the moment, while trying to unravel the Pict problem.

I believe Baldrick is a throwback ... to the missing link!

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

Cheers

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

Let's finally put to rest this "myth" of Edin"burgh" and say it is not and never was a Celtic word. "Burgh" is Anglo-Saxon. It became attached to the Capital because of patronage by Edwin of Northumbria, who "conquered" the Lothians, and the word "burgh" denotes a market-town of good size.

However, we can throw Norse into the mix as well, possibly as early as 4th century. The Vikings were certainly trading tentatively during the Roman period and it is believed several of them were in Scotland centuries before their more famous (and violent) counterparts in the 8th, 9th and 10th centuries

The word "brae" seems to be a hybridisation of words with similar meaning or intent, denoting a long slope. Similarities exist between British, Scots, Norse AND Saxon ... The origin of the word is not so easily defined ... nor can it be ignored as the origin of the "burgh", hijacked by Edwin, the Northumbrian King for his own purposes.

I believe this shows some level of intermixing between the racial groups. Southern Scotland, between 350 and 550 was a thriving territory with so much happening, it carried over into the archaeology. It's all tainted. So much so that when Edwin turns up (c.586-633) his is more like a corporate takeover.

Firefox · Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject:

EXACTLY!

But isn't that the point? It shows a Scotland, intermixed with other cultures and yet, still, Independent! The mixed entymology shows or links with the outside world (whatever they may be at that point).

Our own history shows that. Look at the wars of Independence, or events like Prestonpans... We exist in a world and we make of it what we will in history with what events and processes we have at that point.

We don't forget our own history (good or bad) but our future depends upon the political events of NOW! (Independence First / the SNP / The Unionists / Picts / Angles / Athelstaneford / etc / etc / etc)
_________________
"Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you." Bill Hicks

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

In the 5th to the 8th Century ... Scotland was not Scotland ... therefore your point of Independence is badly made. The whole damn island was a patchwork of small kingdoms vying for power.

You lost your argument before you started it!

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

I suppose you can say every country is a creation in a way, so really any argument for a country being independent could be disputed.
BUT if the majority of people want independence for a particular 'realm' who has the right to argue?

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

Argue?? Not me ... Discuss ... yes, absolutely.

Pragmatic Pict · No Longer a Wean Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

PP wrote;

mairead · Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: Edinburg

Dun means hill so the word Gaelic spelling of Edinburgh, Dun Eideann would, I guess, mean hill fort of the town. Just a guess mind you. The Eideann part probably devolved into Edin and as per the above
post, burgh from the Saxon word meaning town gives us Edinburgh .
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4093

*sighs

As explained elsewhere, Eiddyn was a personal name. It did NOT devolve ... it Evolved ... into Edin ... that's what language does ... it evolves NOT devolves ...

And Dun or Din meant "fortified-place on a hill" or "Hill-fort". Therefore, Dun or Din Eiddyn was Eiddyn's hill-fort.

Scroll back on this thread where we discuss this in full.

The Anglo-Saxon "burgh" is still open to question.

mairead · Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: Edinburg

I yield to your obvious superior intelligence and cringe at my crass stupidity m'lord Blackadder.
My own aristocratic upbringing appears to be much less worthy than yours therefore I won't insist that you address me as Milady.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life