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wisnaeme
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Coventry,England
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 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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"LAz" You may feel you are a victim of this modern world's ability to to be upwardly mobile if opportunities exist and needs must through circumstances but it is what it is and you sticking a finger in a dyke is not going to make things change. If you feel justified in raising your point of view and in conveying your fears, fine that's your right but they are not my fears,they are not in my list of priorities in this ever decreasing ( figuratively speaking ) small planet which we inhabit together.
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They distain all things above their reach and prefer all countries before their own." pluralisation of Thomas Overbury. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1268
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | | One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others... |
Is this typical of your joined up thinking? Two adjacent sentences which completely contradict each other. You're a real prize.
Go away and try to find yourself a brain, you numpty.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | LAz wrote: | | One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others... |
Is this typical of your joined up thinking? Two adjacent sentences which completely contradict each other. You're a real prize.
Go away and try to find yourself a brain, you numpty. |
I meant that one should not put foreign cultures above the domestic one. So yeah, scotland must not put other nationalities above itself. We must not change our language, customs, political institutions or other things so that foreigners would feel at home. They have to adjust, not us.
| wisnaeme wrote: | | "LAz" You may feel you are a victim of this modern world's ability to to be upwardly mobile if opportunities exist and needs must through circumstances but it is what it is and you sticking a finger in a dyke is not going to make things change. If you feel justified in raising your point of view and in conveying your fears, fine that's your right but they are not my fears,they are not in my list of priorities in this ever decreasing ( figuratively speaking ) small planet which we inhabit together. |
Sorry, I am from Yugoslavia and we have a region called Kosovo where a minority became a majority and is now terrorizing and destroying everything that is of the once majority. We have foreign religion in our land and so I am very worried about mixing cultures. I feel that the wars of the future are going to be among different cultures, as a famous political analyst, Huntington, said in his article called the Clash of Civilizations. We already see what problems there are when groups do not assimilate - the riots in France. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1268
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | LAz wrote: | | One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others... |
Is this typical of your joined up thinking? Two adjacent sentences which completely contradict each other. You're a real prize.
Go away and try to find yourself a brain, you numpty. |
I meant that one should not put foreign cultures above the domestic one. So yeah, scotland must not put other nationalities above itself. We must not change our language, customs, political institutions or other things so that foreigners would feel at home. They have to adjust, not us.
| wisnaeme wrote: | | "LAz" You may feel you are a victim of this modern world's ability to to be upwardly mobile if opportunities exist and needs must through circumstances but it is what it is and you sticking a finger in a dyke is not going to make things change. If you feel justified in raising your point of view and in conveying your fears, fine that's your right but they are not my fears,they are not in my list of priorities in this ever decreasing ( figuratively speaking ) small planet which we inhabit together. |
Sorry, I am from Yugoslavia and we have a region called Kosovo where a minority became a majority and is now terrorizing and destroying everything that is of the once majority. We have foreign religion in our land and so I am very worried about mixing cultures. I feel that the wars of the future are going to be among different cultures, as a famous political analyst, Huntington, said in his article called the Clash of Civilizations. We already see what problems there are when groups do not assimilate - the riots in France. |
Aha! By your own reckoning you are a foreigner and yet you refer to Scots as "we". How do you figure that one out, Yugoslavian?
As the foreigner your rules dictate that you should assimilate and subsume your culture to the native culture. The Scots here are telling you that all are welcome and all are Scots, regardless of colour or origin. Surely you require yourself to acquiesce to the native culture or get out?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | LAz wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | LAz wrote: | | One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others... |
Is this typical of your joined up thinking? Two adjacent sentences which completely contradict each other. You're a real prize.
Go away and try to find yourself a brain, you numpty. |
I meant that one should not put foreign cultures above the domestic one. So yeah, scotland must not put other nationalities above itself. We must not change our language, customs, political institutions or other things so that foreigners would feel at home. They have to adjust, not us.
| wisnaeme wrote: | | "LAz" You may feel you are a victim of this modern world's ability to to be upwardly mobile if opportunities exist and needs must through circumstances but it is what it is and you sticking a finger in a dyke is not going to make things change. If you feel justified in raising your point of view and in conveying your fears, fine that's your right but they are not my fears,they are not in my list of priorities in this ever decreasing ( figuratively speaking ) small planet which we inhabit together. |
Sorry, I am from Yugoslavia and we have a region called Kosovo where a minority became a majority and is now terrorizing and destroying everything that is of the once majority. We have foreign religion in our land and so I am very worried about mixing cultures. I feel that the wars of the future are going to be among different cultures, as a famous political analyst, Huntington, said in his article called the Clash of Civilizations. We already see what problems there are when groups do not assimilate - the riots in France. |
Aha! By your own reckoning you are a foreigner and yet you refer to Scots as "we". How do you figure that one out, Yugoslavian?
As the foreigner your rules dictate that you should assimilate and subsume your culture to the native culture. The Scots here are telling you that all are welcome and all are Scots, regardless of colour or origin. Surely you require yourself to acquiesce to the native culture or get out? |
Well I am not in Scotland, but if I was I'd assimilate and do my best to be like you guys. I like your kilts and culture... and I wanna do the caber-toss someday. And if you guys break off of the UK and don't join the EU I'd be going there in a row boat if I had no other way of going there. ^^ |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1268
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Surely Islam has been practiced in Yugoslavia since the first day it came into being? Was there not a moslem population in Bosnia Herzegovena all along? So what is this "foreign religion" in your land?
Perhaps you are conflating "Yugoslavia" with "Serbia" in the way so many people do with "Britain" and "England"?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Surely Islam has been practiced in Yugoslavia since the first day it came into being? Was there not a moslem population in Bosnia Herzegovena all along? So what is this "foreign religion" in your land?
Perhaps you are conflating "Yugoslavia" with "Serbia" in the way so many people do with "Britain" and "England"? |
No, that's wrong. Islam started in the 600s er so. Since then it has spread to many places and has eradicated some others along the way, like the zoroastrians in Iran.
Islam came to the balkans in the 1300s and 1400s. People were forced to convert.
Bosnia and Herzigovina's muslim population is of serbs and croats who are muslim. It has always been a minority but is gonna be a majority soon because of their high demographic growth rate.
I am mostly pointing towards Kosovo... the albanians are foreign there and their population growth is the highest in all of europe... they were about 60% of the population in the 1950s... it's just booming. We see with it that the non-albanians in Kosovo have been continually abused.
So I find it worrying, this mixing of cultures and ethnicities that are very different.
I mean, look at what happened in France not too long ago... riots. That's the result of mixing cultures that do not assimilate well. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1268
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Right... Islam came to the Balkans in the 1300s and 1400s, Yugoslavia came into existence in 1918, and yet I'm wrong. Explain yourself.
I didn't say Islam was a majority religion in Yugoslavia, just that it has always been practiced in Yugoslavia, specifically in Bosnia Herzegovena.
Have there been Moslems in Yugoslavia every day since the First of December 1918? If so, how is it a foreign religion?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Right... Islam came to the Balkans in the 1300s and 1400s, Yugoslavia came into existence in 1918, and yet I'm wrong. Explain yourself.
I didn't say Islam was a majority religion in Yugoslavia, just that it has always been practiced in Yugoslavia, specifically in Bosnia Herzegovena.
Have there been Moslems in Yugoslavia every day since the First of December 1918? If so, how is it a foreign religion? |
Yugoslavia is an artificially created country with no legitimacy. That's one reason why it broke up. It was a mistake to create it. When it was created it was greater serbia, as the serbian royal dynasty ruled over it with a iron fist. They outlawed the socialists and communists and oppressed anyone who resisted anything. The only reason why it was named Yugoslavia is so that the Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty could take more land, hence have a bigger kingdom. They were also masonic, so it was nice for the winners of World War I, and it also served as a stumbling block for Germany as the dynasty did not let them go to the middle east for oil. (that's why we had WW1)
Islam is foreign to the region.
Yugoslavia means land of the south slavs. So technically it was always there since the early slavic migrations in the 500s and 600s. Islam is foreign, period. I find it rather disturbing to look at things from 1918... one must look at the region in a longer range. As we know the region was for a long time ruled on by foreign oppressors. Therefore countries there are new, but the people there are the same. And we have conflicts over borders and the fact that some are spreading into the land of others.
There has to be a line to separate cultures. They just don't mix well. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1268
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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OK, even if I accept you meant the region rather than the country named Yugoslavia, by your own admission Islam has been practiced there for 600 years or more (whether or not it was introduced by force). How old does the practice of a religion have to be before it ceases to be foreign? When did Christianity reach the Balkans? 1500 years ago maybe? When was that finally accepted as no longer foreign?
I'm not one for homogenising cultures into one global whole. I believe that diversity enriches us all and I also believe a culture can be improved by an injection of some outside influence. I do not think a culture can withstand a wholesale influx of something alien to itself but your proposed Balkanisation, for want of a better word, is several steps too far. If you isolate a culture it will die as surely as it will if it is submerged in another.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | OK, even if I accept you meant the region rather than the country named Yugoslavia, by your own admission Islam has been practiced there for 600 years or more (whether or not it was introduced by force). How old does the practice of a religion have to be before it ceases to be foreign? When did Christianity reach the Balkans? 1500 years ago maybe? When was that finally accepted as no longer foreign?
I'm not one for homogenising cultures into one global whole. I believe that diversity enriches us all and I also believe a culture can be improved by an injection of some outside influence. I do not think a culture can withstand a wholesale influx of something alien to itself but your proposed Balkanisation, for want of a better word, is several steps too far. If you isolate a culture it will die as surely as it will if it is submerged in another. |
You have a point there... Islam obvious isn't considered foreign in quite a few places in the Balkans nowadays... it kinda is and isn't at the same time.
Now that is is there we need borders that will separate the various people. I mean, serbs croats and bosnjaks are the same people pretty much - religion is the only difference. Bosnjaks actually were not a nationality untill 1971 er so. So I mean, now that there these differences, we need to give them their own land so that there won't be future conflicts. Greece and Turkey did this in the early 1920s... and now they don't mix their populations in order to avoid conflict.
But anyhows... my main concern was not Bosnia... Bosnia is pretty much as divided as divided can get. There are three flags that fly and the country has no good future in the way that it is. My main concern is Kosovo. The Albanians there are a foreign ethnic group. I can show you population censuses of how their percentage kept on increasing. It is this when a foreign culture and ethnicity come in that we see serious problems. There will never be peace over there because of this. Same for France and their Muslim minority. Mixing is bad. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4273
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | | Yugoslavia is an artificially created country with no legitimacy. |
All countries are artificial, and the only legitimacy you get in this world is through the barrel of a gun.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | LAz wrote: | | Yugoslavia is an artificially created country with no legitimacy. |
All countries are artificial, and the only legitimacy you get in this world is through the barrel of a gun. |
So says Bush and Blair. |
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Babygael
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2459
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ave said | Quote: | | All Countries are artificial, and the only legitimacy you get in this world is through the barrel of a gun |
NO! Just because your upbrining/education is an engerlish one disnae mean you have to hate your people.
laZ said | Quote: | | One Nationality must never put another nationality above itself |
NO! Because a country should try to take the lead in solving these Global issues, a leader does NOT selfishly and thoughtlessly think of him/herself first,but try;s to protect the weakest among us. Not take advantage of them ,like the engerlish have done to many!!
laZ said | Quote: | | Scotland must work in the interest of Scottish people to place their culture above others |
NO! You cannot go around crushing others like the engerlish, this is exactly what they did! So why would you want to emulate them????? 
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Ath-bheothachad
Here is where I come to water my roots. |
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | Ave said | Quote: | | All Countries are artificial, and the only legitimacy you get in this world is through the barrel of a gun |
NO! Just because your upbrining/education is an engerlish one disnae mean you have to hate your people.
laZ said | Quote: | | One Nationality must never put another nationality above itself |
NO! Because a country should try to take the lead in solving these Global issues, a leader does NOT selfishly and thoughtlessly think of him/herself first,but try;s to protect the weakest among us. Not take advantage of them ,like the engerlish have done to many!!
laZ said | Quote: | | Scotland must work in the interest of Scottish people to place their culture above others |
NO! You cannot go around crushing others like the engerlish, this is exactly what they did! So why would you want to emulate them????? |
What is this thing you have about the English and what is the reason for the stupid spelling of that nation's name? The English people are not responsible for Scotland's problems or woes or whatever you want to call them. They have as much say in the matter as you or me.
The only people responsible for the problems in this country are those representatives at Westminster who are a collective of Scots, Irish, Welsh and English (and that odd Australian man who's name eludes me).
The English are not responsible for our problems or for us. If we have allowed Westminster to take advantage of us that is our fault. Did someone not once say something along the lines that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for prosperity in the southeast. The people really responsible are the Scots electorate who constantly voted them into power election after election (like the Celtic supporters who shout for an independent Ireland then vote for the same party/parties who control the northern part of that country to run our/their own country too). I don't go for this anti English blame culture. Any blame lies fairly and squarely at our own feet. If you don't vote for it you won't get it.
Scotland needs bodies to boost our falling population, be they English or otherwise, it matters not. People with your attitude would put them off coming here. |
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LAz
Nationalist
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: |
laZ said | Quote: | | One Nationality must never put another nationality above itself |
NO! Because a country should try to take the lead in solving these Global issues, a leader does NOT selfishly and thoughtlessly think of him/herself first,but try;s to protect the weakest among us. Not take advantage of them ,like the engerlish have done to many!!
laZ said | Quote: | | Scotland must work in the interest of Scottish people to place their culture above others |
NO! You cannot go around crushing others like the engerlish, this is exactly what they did! So why would you want to emulate them????? |
It is not crushing others. It is protecting ourselves. We should not go about crushing them. We should just not let their culture and their traditions change Scottish culture and traditions. We need to preserve our cultural landscape.
We need to be like Iceland, in some ways... they are not in the EU and they seriously limit other cultures from changing or penetrating their cultural landscape. |
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Tearlach MacPolk
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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That may be true in Scotland, and it may be true in Africa, but in the USA, there are millions of white Americans who are damn proud to have scottish heritage!
http://www.deviantart.com/deviati...d&qh=sort%3Atime+-in%3Ascraps
www.macpolk.org
Every year in America there is National Tartan Day (April 06),
over 2,000 Renaissance Faires and Scotish Games where millions put on their kilts,and play the pipes, beat the drums, and sing "Scotland the Brave" so loud they would drown out a 747 Jumbo Jet.
For 10 Faires a year I put on my kilt, with all the swords and paraphanalia to lead a theatrical Scottish Clan, and I am as white as a spinsters knees! |
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Fidget
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| LAz wrote: | | Quote: | | So what is ethnically Scottish then? Because I very much doubt that many of us have a particularly high level of Scotti blood within us. |
People whose ancestors are from that land. People who are from there. Not foreigners.
| Quote: | LAz... what an idiot! That post of yours is nothing but stupid racism.
Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland is welcome and, if they want to be so called, is a Scot. Where does your ethnic model of Scottishness draw the line? Are the descendants of 19th Century Irish immigrants Irish or Scots today? What about King Robert I? Was he a Scot or a Norman? How about Sir William Wallace? How about the Scots, who are said to have come from Ireland? How far does your ethnic cleansing go? We're all descended from immigrants somewhere along the line.
As for "perhaps they should go back to where they came from"; why don't you crawl back up your mother's birth canal and disappear? |
I am not racist. I am not against foreigners. I just find it impossible to say that these foreigners are of the ethnicity where they are in.
Sure, they may be welcome, but they are not scottish.
Sure, there are some who are descendants from immigrants. And there are those who are not. The point is that assimilation. People from Ireland easily assimilate into the scottish society and sooner or later there is no difference between them. However, that is because these people are to some extent from the same culture. Russian people in Scotland will never be Scottish. Nor will Chineese or Arabs.
This is not ethnic cleansing. Where do you get that idea from? I support what the United Arab Emirates do... they let foreigners live there for however long they want... but these people are not granted citizenship.
I do not support that immigrants should go back where they came from. They can fit in if they tried hard enough. And yeah, that means that THEY will have to change to adjust to the Scottish cultural landscape, and that the Scottish Cultural Landscape will not adjust to fit their needs. So yeah, if they have no intention of assimilating into the Scottish Society they should pack their bags and leave, not complain. Complaining for that is their problem, not the problem of the Scots. One nationality must never put another nationality above itself. Scotland must work in the interest of the Scottish people to place their culture above others and not let other cultures work to change the cultural landscape. If one does not want to assimilate, then that one is choosing the consequences of being treated differently. This is the same where-ever one goes in the world.
So yeah, these foreigners should go back to where they came from if they do not want to assimilate and if they find it to be a problem that others in Scotland are not accepting their culture, because there is no reason why the Scottish people should. They came here so they must adjust to the landscape, and the landscape won't adjust to their desires. They may stay but they should know the consequences/common sense - assimilate - no problems ; not assimilating/bringing in new things that are foreign - leads to problems.
What would we do if all of a sudden we get flooded by hundreds of thousands of muslims and they start building mosques all over the country? That would be changing what it means to be scottish and we would have to do something to prevent this. This is not a realistic example, but it is what I am pointing at... the clash of civilizations and the need to protect oneself. Why is iceland so closed off to immigration? Because their culture would disappear if they were open. We have to have toleration of others, but we must draw a line for everything. This is not racism. I am against mistreating those who do not assimilate, but I would rather do business with one who is assimilated that with one who isn't, so it is in their advantage to assimilate. I mean, what else would one expect? Why should we strain ourselves to change our society? We shouldn't. We are who we are, and they are who they are. Someone from Ireland would have no trouble being absorbed into our society and someone from Kazakhstan would have a harder time because they are much more different. It's all in the person... they should have no more or less rights than we do. Suppose they protest that there are no places of worship for them... then hard luck, they came here and knew that there were not... we are not going to start building their cultural things to change our landscape. We are not going to bring their language as mandatory for our education system. They have to adjust, not us. |
Good post LAz. On an everyday level it's like inviting someone into your home - they may be free to make themselves at home, but they're not free to start replacing your furniture with their own. |
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