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FreedomNow · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: Interesting Fact

Edward Bruce, brother of the Scottish king was the last High King of Ireland. A veteran commander of Bannockburn, Edward Bruce held his position as King from 1315-18 until he was killed at the Battle of Faughart. He was the first ruler of the entire island for over 100 year and there would never be another.

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Jimbo · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 667

FreedomNow · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Interesting Fact

Jimbo · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 667

This is quite a lengthy subject but I shall try to keep it concise and to the point.

Robert Bruce wrote a letter to all the kings of Ireland, prelates and clergy and all the inhabitants, his friends.
In it he pointed out that the Scots and Irish shared a common ancestry, common language (Note the reference to common language), common customs and had always been free from ancient times. He asked that they unite with the Scots through the special friendship they had always shared to regain their ancient freedom.

According to G W S Barrow a lot of English historians regard this as deliberate trouble making by Bruce and that one or two of them claim that this ended a halcyon period of Anglo/Irish harmony in a country that had been protected by the English Crown (we've invaded you to protect you, so to speak) for many years.

This should be dismissed however as the Irish yearned to be free of English rule and Bruce's exploits in Scotland stirred them to want the same for their own country and in Edward Bruce they saw their opportunity. The English at the time thought that the Scots intention was the conquest of Ireland and their invasion threatened to wrest Ireland from English control. In the course of a year Edward made various advances and withdrawals against the English in Ireland supported by some of the Irish kings and at Dundalk on 1st May, 1316 he was crowned High King of Ireland.

Thereafter the war became a stalemate and Robert Bruce decided to personally take an army of his veterans to assist his brother. The intention was to rouse the clans of Ireland to support King Edward (Bruce) to drive the English from the country. There were many problems and jealousies amongst the Irish Kings and leaders and getting them together to fight a common cause was virtually impossible. In May 1317 the Scots army under Robert Bruce returned to Scotland decimated by famine and sickness leaving Edward to manage as best he could. G W S Barrow says that “when Robert Bruce sought the backing of ’all the kings of Ireland’ he was asking for a unity quite foreign to Gaelic Ireland”

The Irish did not resist Edward Bruce. It was they who invited him to be their High King.

The recognised historical expert on Scottish medieval history is G W S Barrow and his book, Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland IMO is the best book ever written on this period of our history. It is printed by Edinburgh University Press ISBN o 85224 539 4 Hardback or ISBN o 85224 604 8 Paperback.
Also a good read on this subject is Freedom's Sword by Peter Traquair printed by HarperCollins ISBN 0 00 472080 6

Holebender · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject:

I concur, it's an excellent book.
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BonnieBlueFlag · Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:48 am Post subject:

That's a really interesting piece of history
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Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 999

FreedomNow asked "Did the Irish want him as King" - I think the answer is that many did, but many didn't. However the same had been true of his brother Robert in Scotland not so many years before, and he had triumphed despite such opposition.

Ireland was a country effectively under English control, but where various Irish aristocrats with a plausible claim to being the High King still harboured secret ambitions (so, not totally different from what Scotland had been like, not so many years before). One of these folk with a very good claim to be high king, the head of the O'Neills, decided that the best way to get the English out was to involve the Scots, and he relinquished his own claim to be High King in favour of Edward Bruce, and advised all other claimants to do likewise, to unite behind High King Edward (Bruce) and drive the English occupiers out.

Edward Bruce apparently had no difficulty talking to the Irish, and the fact that his message to the Irish mentioned "a common language" suggests that both he and his brother Robert had grown up speaking fluent Gaelic, possibly acquired from their mother. There would have been some differences between Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic, but maybe at that time there had not been as much divergence as later.

One really scary thing about all this, so far as England's rulers were concerned, was that some folk in Wales were eagerly following any news of developments in Ireland with great interest. If Edward Bruce succeeded in Ireland, then the English crown could face a revolt nearer home, and the sea crossing from Ireland to Wales is not _that_ big, so what was to stop a Bruce from turning up there?

Robert Bruce only became involved in the Irish enterprise at a later stage, and then only for a time. Both at the start of the enterprise, and after Robert returned to Scotland, Edward Bruce was running this as his own show. This suggests that the invitation came originally from the Irish, and Edward Bruce was all for making himself king of a country (just like his older brother) and put everything (including his life) into the effort to do so; but Robert was more concerned about whether this second front was a good or a bad thing so far as the kingdom of Scotland was concerned.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:

Here endeth the lesson.

Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4300

Of course, the old problem that has always bedevilled countries where Celts and their descendants lived, was still fairly rife ... and it is still around today.

Put quite simply ... people of Celtic extraction could cause a fight in an empty barn. They fought for the sheer hell of it, doing so on the flimsiest excuse. This is why there was never a Celtic Empire to rival Greece or Rome, even though the extent of Celtic tribal lands was from Ireland to the Black Sea. Our ancestors could never unify for long. The fairly easy conquest of Gaul by Julius Caesar proved that!

The O'Neills were, by the 11th century, the hereditary High Kings, but the other provinces never accepted it for long. The infighting of Irish Clans was every bit as pernicious as the Scotto-Pictish ones. And the Brits of Wales weren't much better.

Much of this derived from the notion of heredity through the mother, passing from uncle to nephew to nephew (see old Scots king-lists), and also that the children all had equal rights to everything. Look at the Welsh cantrefs to prove that point. The Irish were very similar. It was a complication, but one that was coming to an end. The Celtic Wars of Independence from the 9th century to the 14th laid that spectre to its final rest. Even though Ireland, Wales and Scotland were still quite patchwork in their makeup and the clans eyed each other jealously and murderously. The feud was everything. Even after migration to the New World ... and the legendary feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Of course there was more to it than that ... but I have to go out shortly ... I might return to this subject soon ... so I will leave you with a final thought ...

Where do you think Roddenberry got his ideas for Klingons from?

Corby Boy · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject:

Klingons?

I always thought the inspiration there was the humble 'Mars Bar' judging by their foreheads. Very Happy

Edward Bruce was supposedly quite jealous of his brother's position on the Scots throne. He had built up contacts in Ireland through the procurement of men and arms during the Scottish independence wars. So, it was none so surprising when the O'Neills came knocking, Edward jumped at the chance of having a kingdom of his own.

It is generally acknowledged that Gaelic at the time was more closely related to each other as far as Irish and Scots were concerned than now. But then Donegal Gaelic is not so different to Scots Gaelic even today.

Rinty · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject:

I am sure that the Irish people will have had no say in the matter.

When we are talking about whther 'the Irish' supported Bruces claim or went with it for tactical reasons we should be clear that we are talking about the aristocracy, the bishops etc, and a war of territories fought in many places across europe for centuries before and after, among people who were largely from the same rich and powerful families.

By the time the Irish people got involved what emerged was a mood for no kings, whether they were celtic or not.

Anthropos · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 323

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:

Corby Boy · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject:

We and the Irish.

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject:

mairead · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject:

I understood that it was the titular King of Tyrone who asked King Robert Bruce for help in order to rid Ireland of the English.
Bruce then sent his brother Edward over. Donal O'Neil called on the Irish to support Edward after his coronation on 2nd May 1316 at Dundalk.
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