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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, I don't for a minute suggest that there is nothing in what you say. My point is that you look at things too black and white. In the same way as scotsdream does. Although I doubt you genuinely do think like this, I think you just take that line to make a point on this forum.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Well spotted. 
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Well spotted. |
Unfortunately, in doing so, it kind of makes a mockery of your point. |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Not really. I enjoy exposing the non-sequitors and prejudices inherent in Nationalism. The point stands.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Not really. I enjoy exposing the non-sequitors and prejudices inherent in Nationalism. The point stands. |
Yes, but how many people take your points on board when you espouse them from such a prejudiced standpoint? |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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I am not operating from a prejudiced standpoint. I like to debate politics with people with whom I disagree. Where they show signs of any grasp of nuance or subtlety, and are capable of arguing their point in a rational manner, I will respond likewise.
If, on the other hand, they show signs of living in a cartoon, black & white world of goodies and baddies, where every attempt to question the fundamentally illogical and emotive nature of nationalism provokes accusations of being a 'traitor', 'English', 'privately-educated' or 'anglicised' I will poke fun at them, because they deserve no less.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | I am not operating from a prejudiced standpoint. |
I think you have certainly been guily of making sweeping generalisations about people based not on reality but your idea of what it is to be a 'nationalist'.
| agentmancuso wrote: | | I like to debate politics with people with whom I disagree. Where they show signs of any grasp of nuance or subtlety, and are capable of arguing their point in a rational manner, I will respond likewise. If, on the other hand, they show signs of living in a cartoon, black & white world of goodies and baddies, where every attempt to question the fundamentally illogical and emotive nature of nationalism provokes accusations of being a 'traitor', 'English', 'privately-educated' or 'anglicised' I will poke fun at them, because they deserve no less. |
Aye, I have no doubt that is your intention. Sure, people like scotsdream provide you with an easy target, but it looks to me like you would rather be poking fun at them than taking part in a reasoned debate (i.e. responding to my posts above  ). |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | I think you have certainly been guily of making sweeping generalisations about people based not on reality but your idea of what it is to be a 'nationalist'. |
If so, then I humbly apologise.
| Quote: | | Aye, I have no doubt that is your intention. Sure, people like scotsdream provide you with an easy target, but it looks to me like you would rather be poking fun at them than taking part in a reasoned debate (i.e. responding to my posts above ). |
I enjoy both parts equally. But I wouldn't bother drawing attention to the bampots if it wasn't for a genuine concern that their outlandish statements are tolerated by people who should know better.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | If so, then I humbly apologise. |
No problem 
| Quote: | | I enjoy both parts equally. But I wouldn't bother drawing attention to the bampots if it wasn't for a genuine concern that their outlandish statements are tolerated by people who should know better. |
Fair enough. I just think sometimes it's very easy to confuse bampottery with naivety and ignorance. In these cases there may be more productive methods to use to make your point. |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'll bear that in mind
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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louismcleod
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Congradulations and best of luck to the SNP. Fighting for independence when you're already part of a rich and modern country is not an easy thing, especially in today's individualistic, politically-bored world. Most people today have totally forgotten or don't care about their ancestors' struggles, as long as their daily little comforts aren't threatened. This is a shame, people aren't sheep, there's more to a people's future than just to merge into a single bland human blob. Just like there's biodiversity in nature, there's diversity in human people and cultures. There are rarer species, then there are rats, pigeons, etc that thrive so much they would take over the whole ecosystem if they could. Opponents of human diversity argue we should all be the same, like rats or pigeons and let go of our cultural differences. They equate borders with war and intolerance, but would never give up theirs. One of the purposes of independence or for that matter having countries, is to allow differences, protect a certain area on earth for a people to exist and evolve. Borders are not bad things, they're not being close-minded, or anti-neighbors. When John Lennon sang to imagine no countries to kill or die for, he didn't mean to have the smaller countries shut up and merge in the big ones for peace's sake. Erasing all borders is a nice dream but can't be used by one against the other for self-interest. One of the reasons that made Europe thrive in sciences and arts over the centuries was that it had diversity and competition, it wasn't a single faceless blob. Like the saying goes: you can't have a door without walls. I applaud Scottish independence and apologize to Brits who disagree, as it's none of my business, being a foreigner (good thing there are borders!). I'm a Quebecker and vote yes to independence here too. |
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snyper1010
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry if this comment is going to sound totally off topic but i got bored reading all that unionist pish so i skipped several pages.
What i found funny from the first page is they scream finances when independance is mentioned but as soon as answers are laid out they then scream something else. Its a disgrace and so are the people that support this union. Scotland has been robbed of more than money over the years its well beyond the right time that Scotland is once more a free nation and the Saltire is the only flag that flies above our cities. |
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crazydaisy
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| YEAH! |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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You're a tag team, right?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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snyper1010
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| a tag team? who? |
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Red Justice
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Dun Deagh
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mal
Nationalist
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | SLG wrote: | | I think you have certainly been guily of making sweeping generalisations about people based not on reality but your idea of what it is to be a 'nationalist'. |
If so, then I humbly apologise.
| Quote: | | Aye, I have no doubt that is your intention. Sure, people like scotsdream provide you with an easy target, but it looks to me like you would rather be poking fun at them than taking part in a reasoned debate (i.e. responding to my posts above ). |
I enjoy both parts equally. But I wouldn't bother drawing attention to the bampots if it wasn't for a genuine concern that their outlandish statements are tolerated by people who should know better. |
I`ve never really noticed any attempt to criticise the use of emotive terms emanating from "Unionists" with slurs of Naziism etc or "evil stains".
Mind you, as someone who claims to be liberal, i really shouldn`t be surprised as your lot have form in this respect,as such, your views should be treated with contempt and allied with the condescending nature of your witterings you really would deserve to be labelled as a hypocrite.
Have a nice summer. |
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Blackleaf
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 878
Location: Lancashire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence |
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questions or objections raised by brainwashed unionists in Scotland:
| Quote: | Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who? |
So you are saying that Scotland subsidises England, or the rest of the UK, just because it raises a meagre one-tenth of all UK tax revenues?
| Quote: | Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country. |
Barnett, the guy who wrote the Barnett Formula, is himself against it. He believes it is now out of date.
Mr Barnett himself says that English taxpayers subsidise the Scots through the system.
The only reason why Scotland does so well out of it is because it is one of Labour's heartlands. Haven't you realised yet that Scotland doesn't acquire this money because it needs it but it acquires it to blackmail people into voting Labour?
Labour cronies say that is is "not about to scrap" the unfair Barnett Formula, saying :""The Government is committed to improving prosperity and growth in all regions and countries of the UK.
"While it takes note of all contributions to the debate on this subject, the Government has no plans to change the Barnett formula."
How can anyone with a registerable IQ say that giving Scots 21% more than the UK average and 49% more than the South-East amounts to a "fair allocation" of resources?
If the Tories win the next election, which is very likely, let's hope they scrap this system.
Even the Welsh are up in arms about the Barnett Formula:
| Quote: | Sep 10 2008 by Tomos Livingstone, Western Mail
A PRESSURE group today steps up the campaign for changes to the Barnett Formula, claiming English taxpayers have “wasted” £200bn subsidising Wales and Scotland.
The formula for distributing Treasury funds around the UK was devised 30 years ago and is frequently criticised for being out of date.
Based on population levels rather than the spending needs of schools and hospitals, Wales is often deemed to be missing out on much-needed extra investment as a result of Barnett – a recent estimate puts the sum at £2bn a year.
But there is growing argument on the centre-right in England that the real victims of the formula are English taxpayers, who get comparatively even lower rates of public spending.
In 2007-08 the Government spent £7,535 per head in England, but £8,577 in Wales and £9,179 in Scotland.
Today the Taxpayers’ Alliance, a pressure group campaigning against what it sees as unnecessary government expenditure, says England has effectively subsidised the Celtic nations to the tune of £200bn since the formula was introduced.
In a report, written by former Treasury official Mike Denham, the group says: “Clearly nobody wants to “upset the Scots”, but even those on the receiving end of the largesse aren’t always happy.
“Scottish politicians complain about the ‘Barnett squeeze’... and the Scottish Government produces detailed analyses contrasting the constrained value of their block grant receipts with what they might expect if they got their hands on ‘Scotland’s oil’.
“Meanwhile, Welsh politicians complain constantly about being disadvantaged relative to Scotland and various English regions.
“They point to the high cost of running public services in a territory that suffers problems of urban poverty combined with the challenges of rural inaccessibility.”
There are fears, however, that clamour for change to Scotland’s public spending levels could see Wales caught in the crossfire.
Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy said last night it would be better to “leave well alone” than change the system.
The Treasury is wary of changing the Barnett Formula, citing its simplicity as one of its chief virtues. Chancellor Alistair Darling is due to present a ‘factual paper’ on the workings of the system in a bid to counter some of the complaints.
But even its creator Lord Barnett, who devised it when he was chief secretary to the Treasury in the 1970s, says the formula was never intended as a long-term measure and had been drawn up “almost on the back of an envelope”.
Mr Denham said: “The Barnett Formula has a troubled history and has failed to address the extremely unfair situation of English taxpayers heavily subsiding Scotland.
“Everyone is struggling to make ends meet, and it is long overdue for the Government to lift this burden from taxpayers’ shoulders.
“English taxpayers want an end to subsidising Scotland, and the Scottish Government wants financial control devolved to Holyrood, so now is the ideal time to consign the Barnett Formula to history.”
Mr Murphy told the Western Mail: “At the end of the day it’s actually suited Wales very well indeed.
“It’s given us pretty good spending figures compared to the English regions.
“We should be careful what we do with it; my guess is this latest report will see people concentrate on Scotland without looking at Wales.
“Leave well alone would be my aim; we have done very well from it.”
Several inquiries are underway into the Barnett Formula, including one set up in Cardiff Bay as part of the Labour-Plaid Cymru coalition deal.
The House of Lords is conducting its own investigation, while Scotland’s Calman Commission is examining the way the Scottish Executive is funded.
www.walesonline.co.uk |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1092
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence |
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| Blackleaf wrote: | | Barnett, the guy who wrote the Barnett Formula, is himself against it. He believes it is now out of date. |
So?
So what?
What is your point?
Blackleaf, your posts here on this forum lack any kind of consistent logic to them. The only consistency about them is their anti-Scottish prejudice.
Barnett is a mere politician, one of no great importance. If he has decided that the formula associated with his name is inappropriate, he still has some way to go to catch up with supporters of independence for Scotland, who have been in favour of scrapping that formula all along, in favour of a new "formula" under which Scotland is independent and responsible for its own finances. |
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