Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol wrote "you're in cuckoo land to think that the population of Scotland will swear allegiance to the flag"

And you're in cuckoo land to believe that there are faeries at the bottom of your garden!

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol wrote "you're in cuckoo land to think that the population of Scotland will swear allegiance to the flag"

To which I responded "And you're in cuckoo land to believe that there are faeries at the bottom of your garden!"

This response went over Carol's head, which is a pity, as I now have to explain it.

Carol never said she believed there are faeries at the bottom of her garden.

Just like I never said I thought "the population of Scotland will swear allegiance to the flag".

So Carol's assertion that I was "in cuckoo land" was based on a false attribution of a view I did not in fact hold.

Carol has a habit of mis-quoting.

I never do.

Every word I put in quotes is something that the person being quoted actually said.

It is regrettable that this has, again, got so silly, and so personal. That is Carol's choice, not mine.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol wrote "The only opinions you value are your own".

That's not true.

This discussion started off being about the "Save Our Saltire" campaign in Angus. You know the main organiser of that campaign, Bruce, very well, Carol. I received a letter from a senior member of Angus Council regarding the issue. I reported receiving that letter, but I didn't give the name of the councillor. Somebody I know to be a reporter wanted to know the name. I was reluctant to give it at present. So this morning I phoned Bruce, to ask his opinion. Bruce said I was right not to give the name at this stage. That proves I valued Bruce's opinion on this matter.

I value the opinions of all of my fellow members of "Determination" regarding campaigning for a referendum and for independence. I value the wisdom of my mother-in-law regarding a great many things. I value the opinion of my next door neighbour on why my car won't start (he's a taxi driver who used to be a garage mechanic). I value the opinion of my doctor on why my body appears to be in danger of failing its MOT. I value the opinions of my good friend Andy on Art and many other things. I value the opinion of Dr Samuel Perlo-Freeman on economics. See http://www.basicint.org/nuclear/beyondtrident/cost.pdf I also value Sam's opinions on many other subjects, including what we should have for Christmas dinner (however, I will not be joining him in going to Midnight Mass). So far as "heritage" is concerned, I have told you that ANY qualified historian would feel the same as I do about this word, that it is often used as a cover for pseudo-history, that the heritage industry and the study of history are two completely different things. However, if you can find even just ONE historian who disagrees, I will listen carefully to what they have to say.

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject:

unclear why you're bringing Bruce in as an example, regardless is it the case that if you don't get the result you were looking for you will reveal the councillors name?

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol asked "so is true that if you don't get the result you were looking for you will reveal the councillors name?"

You make this sound like a case of blackmail, Carol. This councillor has done nothing to be ashamed of, quite the opposite. Okay, so maybe they didn't understand the historical side of things fully, but there is no shame in not knowing something, only in refusing to learn, which they have not done. The next full council meeting is a week today, on Thursday 8th November. I understand that, at that meeting, this councillor, along with some colleagues, will be putting out a public statement regarding this matter. I think it reasonable to wait for them to do so. I have every confidence that statement will be satisfactory.

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject:

so are you saying that letters from those within the alliance will not be made public if you do not get a satisfactory result?

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol wrote "unclear why you're bringing Bruce in as an example".

Well, I know that you have had some big disagreements with him, but that has nothing to do with this. It's quite simple. You said of me that "The only opinions you value are your own". As it happens, I can PROVE that is not true, because I specifically sought out somebody else's opinion TODAY. As it happens, the person whose opinion I sought out today happened to be Bruce, because he is the organiser of the "Save Our Saltire" campaign.

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:

and you've had bigger ones with him?

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

Carol wrote "so are you saying that letters from those within the alliance will not be made public if you do not get a satisfactory result?"

Carol, you said that the only opinions I value are my own. You said that on a day when I had specifically sought out somebody else's opinion. If you have lost Bruce's phone number, I can give it to you, so that you can check that I did indeed phone him early this morning to ask his opinion. You have been PROVED wrong in what you said. All this nonsense you are now coming out with is just a way of seeking to avoid acknowledging that you have been proved wrong.

That is the reason why you are persisting with your ridiculous attempt to imply some sort of blackmail. This councillor has done nothing to be ashamed of, quite the opposite. Okay, so maybe they didn't fully understand the historical side of things, but there is no shame in not knowing something. It is shameful to refuse to learn, but they have not done that either. The next full council meeting is a week today, on Thursday 8th November. I understand that, at that meeting, this councillor, along with some colleagues, will be putting out a public statement regarding this matter. I think it reasonable to wait for them to express their views in their own words. I have every confidence that statement will be completely satisfactory. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that I am not too happy with the outcome, then I would obviously have to consider what to do next. In considering that, I might consult with some other folk for their opinions. But rest assured, you will not be bothered with a phone call. Anyway, I don't believe for one second that I will ever even come to that bridge, never mind cross it, and I'm not going to allow you to push me over a non-existent bridge. The fact is, this campaign here in Angus has already met with considerable success, and I for one can be patient for another week.

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject:

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject:

I definitely wasn't implying blackmail Dave, comments have been posted elsewhere obviously ones you aren't aware of. Regardless best of luck with your SOS campaign, hopefully you get the results without any undue pressure

Agent not sure what the attraction is, but you're getting close to my heels and I bite! Razz

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject:

I'll take the risk.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek

carol · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject:

that's being brave!

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1096

In a message to this forum on Monday 29th October I wrote "One of the Angus councillors I wrote to about this matter, a senior official of the 'Angus Alliance' which took over in May with a one-vote majority, has written me a lengthy reply. He says 'I really enjoyed reading your letter and respect your arguments on the inappropriatenes of aspects of the flag historically. However, one has often to compromise in order to preserve unity and if that means watering down one's principles, then that is the reality we have to learn to live with in coalition politics'. Regarding taking down the Saltire, he says 'that was never our intention. Instead, we take the view that the Saltires should remain and over a period of time the Angus flag could, eventually, fly alongside the Saltire'."

I will now say that letter was from Deputy Provost Peter Murphy, a Labour Party councillor from Carnoustie.

In addition, my wife tells me that Councillor David May, Liberal Democrat, from Montrose, has phoned me several times in response to my letter, apparently with a similar message.

Although it may never have been the intention of some councillors, council leader Bob Myles is on record as saying his intention was to "replace" the saltires. The campaign has forced Bob Myles, Provost Ruth Leslie Melville, and a handfull of like-minded others, into a humiliating retreat.

Bruce, who, as previously mentioned, is the main organiser of the Save Our Saltires campaign in Angus, has just posted a message on the "FreeScot" forum. Here it is :

"Angus council released a statement on the STV evening news tonight. The statement ensured everyone that the Saltire will NOT be removed. Their plan now is to erect a second flag pole in each town and both the saltire and the new Angus flag will be flown. It is not the best outcome but we have achieved what we set out to do. The saltire will still fly high in Angus."

Note that Peter Murphy assured me that the saltires would remain up and "over a period of time the Angus flag could, eventually, fly alongside the Saltire".

Note also that Councillor Murphy told me that, in his view, the additional costs involved in flying the "Angus" flags as well "should be met by the Alliance councillors out of their own pockets". At present, it still remains to be seen whether he has managed to persuade his colleagues to join him in this commitment!