Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

RadgeJougal · Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject:

"how does this back up your claim that OorWulliespeak is a separate living language?"

Now, I really think you are autistic (see my other reply). I never said it was. I just mentioned the length of a piece of string.

"Scots, which has been dead for generations."

Definitely not. They still speak it in Aberdeenshire, amongst other places.

"Wiki disagrees"

Wiki can be (quote) "edited by anyone". It's a guide not a reference. Helpful sometimes, but often inaccurate.

"Stridency and heartfelt conviction are a poor substitute for reason."

They may well be. Especially when you haven't actually read what I was saying. I didn't say it was a language... I said that the difference between a language and a dialect has never been properly defined.

Pay attention at the back, or you'll have to sit in the corner Laughing

agentmancuso · Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:23 am Post subject:

"Talking about string is a convenient way of avoiding the fact that Scots is dead."

No, it's not. In fact, it's got nothing to do with life or death of it, so much as the differentiation.

"That's English actually."

Call it what you will, but older folk in rural Aberdeenshire still speak Lowland Scots.

"Just as well, cos you'd have looked like a plonker if you had."

No, not just as well. You made the plonk. I couldn't care if it's a language or not... I do think it has some value though.

"I've provided a perfectly valid working definition. Try and better it if you can."

It's not perfect. In fact, it's already riddled with holes. Second suggestion - no, I can't do better, and don't propose to. Only speeches which are isolated by geography, i.e. mountains, sea/islands etc are well differentiated. For the rest, it's somewhere between the patchwork quilt and spectrum ideas. 150 years ago, before the advent of TV, you could have walked from Calabria, through Provence and down to Andalucia, and then up to Galicia, and to Wallonia, and you would have heard subtle shifts in the local (as opposed to official) vernaculars. Even with the isoglosses, there would be no sudden jolts, only gradual change, except where there were major geographical obstacles.

William_Cleland · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:14 am Post subject:

All this fuss over whether Scots is a dead language or an almost dead language. Smile

I can understand the vehemence with which inga's sort of perspective is held much more than I can agentmancuso's.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:39 am Post subject:

If it's not a language, it can't be a dead language can it?

Holebender · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:09 am Post subject:

William_Cleland · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:

The only way his posture on this is remotely tenable is if the "peasants" simply don't count. Usual British class system nonsense basically.

mairead · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject:

All I can say is that I speak in my Scots tongue, the one my mother spoke and the same one generations of the family have spoken. I have no 'Oxford accent' either and I see no need to try to change the way I speak.
I probably have a local dialect too but so what. No-one speaks perfect English either so why all the fuss about Scots language. Speak it as you learned it.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:

mairead · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

Slang is nothing more than a dialect which some folk do not like or encourage, but that is just down to years of being told how to speak by those who don't understand dialects and by the advent of 'proper English' pronunciation, most of which is pronounced wrongly anyway.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

William_Cleland · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:02 am Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:45 am Post subject:

I think a line should be drawn between slang and dialect. The two are not exactly the same, although some people don't understand that!

"I'd much rather see a prosperous English speaking Shetland with a strong economy than the grindingly poor insular Scots speaking rural Shetland that my grandmother grew up in"

Well, what happens when it is the grindingly poor English speaking rural Shetland of the future?

William_Cleland · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:33 am Post subject:

You are quoting me selectively. I personally don't think a straight choice has to be made but I don't live there so it's not really for me to say what should happen down the road. Shetland is doing not too badly these days even with the oil sector declining thanks to the growth in fish farming.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:42 am Post subject:

Of course I am. Because I was making a brief point, and didn't want to throw the rest in.

When Shetland becomes poor again - which is perfectly possible - what will it have then?

William_Cleland · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:56 am Post subject:

Don't think it will become poor. No reason why Shetland can't be as prosperous as the Faroe Islands based on aquaculture and there are big plans for wind energy although that's still a bit controversial.

http://www.shetlandtoday.co.uk/Sh...ntent_details.asp?ContentID=21292

mairead · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:22 am Post subject:

Sorry folks, but I think this thread has developed into a load of Psycho babble.
It matters not a jot what dialect people speak. I am sure we have all met idiots who speak with 'Cultured English,, accents, and highly intelligent folk who use the tongue they were brought up with.
How you speak is not so important as the ability to communicate.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life