Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

I wrote that while some folk think "class can be defined by accent, by how people speak, or by what kind of music they like", this shows a lack of understanding of what class means, that it was a matter of "actual circumstances" (meaning, wealth, poverty, etc.)

Agentmancuso responds that class is a matter of taxonomical convenience.

Taxonomy is "a scheme of classification" (OED). While it can have more specific meanings in some sciences, particularly biology, all of us, scientists included, classify things for convenience. To say that class is a matter of using a scheme of classification for convenience is a rather circular statement. So far as social class is concerned, it makes more sense to base this on "actual circumstances" than on either accent or what kind of music folk like.

Movement between classes may be limited, but it does happen. If you base "class" on accent, then you can get such anomalies as Billy Connolly, or Paul MacCartney, being seen as "working class", despite the fact that they are both multi-millionaires who are also big landowners in the highlands. For fairly obvious reasons, I can't give any famous examples of movement between classes in the other direction, but again, although limited, it does happen.

RFM · Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject:

Hi David Coull,

It is an excellent essay and certainly deserves wider circulation. I hope you will do so

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:23 am Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject:

mairead · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject:

I must admit to refusing to pay the poll tax on my room in the nurses home as I was already paying it for my own home.
One month when I went to the bank to draw out my salary, it had been witheld by the bank until I signed a mandate to allow the bank to pay the poll tax arrears I had a accumulated. I refused to sign the mandate and decided it could lie in the bank.
Many years later, several hundred pound was credited to my account. It was ages before I realised what it was. That was like a wee victory for me.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

RFM · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject:

Hi agentmancuso,

Actually Mr. Coull raises a curious point as to what is meant, or implied in the notion of class standing within a society. I think I can say without fear of serious objection that the English have long been regarded by themselves and others as a very class conscious society. That is not to say they are the only ones by any means, but the question really is what is meant by "class" as status? Mr. Radge Jougal makes the assumption that a university education implies middle class status while Mr. Coull sees middle class status as something else, presumably material well-being.
As we all learned in basic history, the term middle-class comes out of merchantilism, when communities were divided between the aristocracy and the peasantry. The merchants as a class of people who became wealthy and sought a place at the levers of political power in the community became known as the middle-class. Today however, the term seems to mean something else. People who work for a paycheck, but regard themselves as relatively highly paid, adopt the term "middle class" to describe themselves. So construction workers now regard themselves as middle class because their disposable income allows foreign travel, home ownership, frequent vacations and somewhat expensive hobbies. Mr. Coull for instance points to his financial woes as proof of sorts as not being a member of the middle class, sadly enough because his education has not proved financially rewarding. Unfortunately that argument belies a lack of familiarity with the fact that people who regard themselves as middle class often accept poverty as an incident of one's fortune, which plays little or no role in the essential characteristics of their self-perception of middle class values. For instance, a story appeared recently in the Chicago Tribune about a black man who was a door man at an office building in Chicago, who on coming home after work would change into a suit and tie to sit down to dinner with his family and would insist on a certain decorum being rigidly observed at the dinner table. He clearly saw himself as exemplifying middle class values although his work and pay was essentially menial.
I observe that although the Scots have adopted many English values and traits, there seems to be a leveling influence of sorts that abounds within the society. Consider Robert Burns poem "A man's a man for aa' that". Certainly not the sort of poetry that would find much acclaim in England for instance. Or the notion of independence itself. One wonders why so much independence was preserved in 1707 and why the nation was simply not fully adopted and integrated within England as another English county?

mairead · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:

There are many people who view themselves as 'Upper class' not because they are, but because THEY think they are. Big difference.
Hey, we all enter this world naked and leave it in a shroud.
A real classy person is one who can walk and talk with Princes or Paupers, who can hold their own, yet stretch out a hand to the needy.That's true class.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

RadgeJougal · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

I didn't realise that England was an EU member state. Did we get independence while I wasn't looking?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:

I'm afraid you've lost me. If England is not a member state, and doesn't even have a government, how can it have any sort of relationship with the EU? How does this relationship manifest? I am sure I haven't heard of England having any form or representation at councils of ministers or the Commission. Is this purely based on how MSPs for England's constituencies behave?

I don't regard a few tabloid newspaper headlines as a relationship.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

RadgeJougal · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject:

Not sure why you chaps are banging on about 'member states'. That's got bugger all to do with it. I'm talking about the typically contrasting popular view of the EU in England and in Scotland.

In England, the populist angle is to whine about how the EU is bossing us about and stealing all our money and passing silly rules that don't take us into consideration.

In Scotland, we pay very little attention to the EU. Instead, the populist angle here is to whine about how the UK is bossing us about and stealing all our money and passing silly rules that don't take us into consideration.

Different target, same nationalist tripe.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek

RFM · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject:

Radge and Holebender;

UK is a member state of the EU and has been for some time. You might want to look at the UK permament rep office in Brussels. I seem to recall the Mr. Major was there for a while.

However agentmancuso's point is that what passes for nationalism is really parochialism.

Holebender · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

Well grandson,

I believe it was you who posted on on Jan 12 that you had not heard England had any sort of representation at the council of ministers and the day before that you had never heard England was a member state.

What happened there boy? Forget to look at your passport for symbols or was it some other Holebender that said that? Or is it some dimwitted argument that UK is not England?

agentmancuso · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject:

I'll leave it for others to decide how guid a hingin ye gave yersel.

RFM, are you really that hard of understanding? Where to begin? You are the one trying to teach your granny to suck eggs so that hardly makes me your grandson. And if I were your grandson, may I apologise for having missed your hundredth birthday all those years ago? The truth is I thought you were dead, long dead. The stuff you posted about England's representation, etc. has me baffled. Would you please spell out England's relationship with the EU as you understand it, just so I know how to respond?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso