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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agentmancuso wrote:
Not sure why you chaps are banging on about 'member states'. That's got bugger all to do with it. I'm talking about the typically contrasting popular view of the EU in England and in Scotland.

In England, the populist angle is to whine about how the EU is bossing us about and stealing all our money and passing silly rules that don't take us into consideration.

In Scotland, we pay very little attention to the EU. Instead, the populist angle here is to whine about how the UK is bossing us about and stealing all our money and passing silly rules that don't take us into consideration.

Different target, same nationalist tripe.


Except in both examples, there is a case. Where both sets of campaigners  get it wrong, is by employing a xenophobic angle, instead of exposing the fact that unions exploit people in all regions.

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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
Radge and Holebender;

UK is a member state of the EU and has been for some time. You might want to look at the UK permament rep office in Brussels. I seem to recall the Mr. Major was there for a while.

However agentmancuso's point is that what passes for nationalism is really parochialism.


Really, I didn't know that.  Rolling Eyes Did you actually read my message?
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well sonny, as UK has been a member of the EU since 1993, I doubt that you could hardy be more than 14 years old. There is little need to explain why the earth is round or the sun rises in the morning or that foolishness talk is explained as giving one rope to hang one's self. All of the information is quite easily available to anyone who wants to read, rather than talk of sucking eggs.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Radge,

Yes I did.
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Here or There

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM, do you actually know or understand that there is a difference between England and the UK? The UK is a member of the EU, England is not, in its own right. It is your lack of apparent understanding of these facts which has hampered any possible response from me.

As to my age, the hint that my grandmothers would both be well into their second centuries if they were still alive might have provided a clue. Stupid boy.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holebender,

Rhetoric as it was taught formerly many years ago in the university was the skill of being able to argue and put forth all sides of a question. That required however understanding of the subject matter. Now we have simply argument, the empty headed method of making inane observations on topics we little understand as a misguided attempt to show intellect.

Try to do a little better and read something about the EU, who its members are and why there is unequal participation before you start with inane arguments. I offered the observation about your possible age to excuse your previous statements. Saying you are older does you little credit but so be it.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holebender wrote:
I'll leave it for others to decide how guid a hingin ye gave yersel.


Amazing linguistic feat that, switching to a completely different language mid-sentence.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RadgeJougal wrote:
Except in both examples, there is a case. Where both sets of campaigners  get it wrong, is by employing a xenophobic angle, instead of exposing the fact that unions exploit people in all regions.


Not unions, governments.
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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One and the same in both cases. Pretty much. The problems with both unions stem mainly from their political and governmental set ups.
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM. As you've indicated nothing to the contrary I can only assume you have no understanding of the differences between England and the UK, and which is the member of the EU. Judging by your last post you seem to have no understanding of anything and choose to cover your ignorance by obfuscation. I won't waste any more time on you.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holebender wrote:
the differences between England and the UK


Differences? Surely you jest?  Shocked
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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
Radge,

Yes I did.


So why did you post that "for my benefit"?

Neither England nor Scotland are member states, it's the UK that is. We know that. Because of that, they're in the EU, but not member states a bit like Bavaria or Catalonia.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Radge I think the argument you are trying to develop is boring.
If you go back and read your own postings, trying to say that you understood Scotland and England were not within the EU as independent communities, but were within the EU under the collective nexus of the UK is beyond disingenuous. Boneheaded is the word that occurs to me.
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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not trying to develop it.

"Boneheaded is the word that occurs to me."

Well, the internet always sinks to the lowest level. Why did you try to explain something to me, which I made clear I already understood?
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! You're all supposed to be arguing with me, not each other  Shocked
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah!
Go get him Radge.
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!


Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RFM,

how're you?

You asked..

Quote:
One wonders why so much independence was preserved  in 1707 and why the nation was simply not fully adopted and integrated within England as another English county?


I would point out that this was an agreement between two equal nations to join in an incorporating union where both were to be equal partners ever-after. It was not an agreement by Scotland to be assimilated or subsumed by England. But I think you already knew that and are being a little bit mischievous here.

You may as well ask in relation to England: One wonders why so much independence was preserved  in 1707 and why the nation was simply not fully adopted and integrated within Scotland as another Scottish county?

May I suggest to you two excellent books on this subject which go into great detail as to why and how the union came about.

Andrew Fletcher and The Treaty of Union. ISBN 0854110577

Scotland's Ruine, Lockhart of Carnwath's Memoirs of the Union. First published 1714. ISBN 0948877286

Lockhart, who took part in the Great Debate, is of the opinion that had the treaty failed, the pro-unionists in Scotland would have been treated as traitors and that is why they went to such great lengths to make sure it did not fail.

He had this to say of them when the information of their bribery came to light in 1711:

"Murder will out, and what is thus discovered is sufficient to satisfie any man of the true motives that induced the ministry of England to lend this money, and directed the ministry of Scotland in the distribution of it. It is abundantly disgraceful to be any manner of way a contributor to the misery and ruine of one's native country. But for the persons of quality and distinction to sell, and even at so mean a price, themselves and their posterity, is so scandalous and infamous that such persons must be contemptible in the sight of those who bought them, and their memories odious to all future generations."


Last edited by Jimbo on Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jimbo,

Doing OK. A Happy New Year to You and much obliged for the reference.
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!


Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi RFM,

I'm pleased to hear that, and a happy new year to you too.

If you can get hold of these books RFM you'll really enjoy them.

The foreword to Lockharts Memoirs which was re-published in 1995 is written by the historian Paul Scott who writes:

"Lockhart gave the game away in an unflinching exposure of a very sordid transaction. If you wanted conceal the facts and maintain that the Union was an act of enlightened statesmanship, then you certainly did not want to encourage people to read Lockhart. His book has been suppressed by tacit censorship. For this reason it has never received the recognition which it deserves as a work of literature as well as an important historical source."
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