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RFM · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject:

To William Cleland,

Nope, not at all. I guess it is a mistake to use Wikipedia as an authority for anything critical, but since that is your source, read the contrasting views about the history of the Kingdom of Serbia (the modern state of 1881) and its medieval forerunner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

William_Cleland · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 778

That the best you can do? There are plenty of other sources on stuff like the Great Migration of 1690 besides wikipedia.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-43574/Serbia

The greatest of these revolts took place in 1690, when Serbs rose in support of an Austrian invasion. The Habsburg forces, unable to sustain their advance, retreated back across the Sava, leaving the native population seriously exposed to Turkish reprisals. In 1691 Archbishop Arsenije III Crnojevic of Pec led a migration of 30,000–40,000 families from “Old Serbia” and southern Bosnia across the Danube and Sava. There they were settled and became the basis of the Austrian Militärgrenze, or Military Frontier. (The Slavic name for the region, Vojna Krajina, was used 300 years later in the title given to the areas of Croatia that local Serb majorities attempted to claim for Serbia following the secession of Croatia from Yugoslavia.) Also dating from the time of the great migration of 1691 was the gradual conversion of Kosovo-Metohija into a predominantly Albanian region, as Albanians filled the space left by the displaced Serbs.

RFM · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1001

Cymro wrote "Scotland at the moment does not have a majority wanting indepedence, whereas Kosovo does".

You have no proof of either of these statements.

There is plenty of evidence that a lot of the Albanian majority in Kosovo want Union with Albania in a Greater Albanian state, with independence being merely their second choice. Most of the Kosovo Serbs, of course, want Kosovo to remain linked with Serbia. I bet if you put these two alternatives, as well as independence, to the vote in a referendum, only a minority would vote for an independent Kosovo.

As for the claim that Scotland does not have a majority wanting independence, look, I know I'm getting a wee bit absent-minded in my old age, so just remind me, when was the referendum held?

William_Cleland · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 778

Cymro · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject:

To Cymro,

Well that is exactly the problem. How do we know what the people of Kosovo want? Since June 13, 1999, Kosovo has been run by appointed adminstrators, Brazilian, Danes, Germans, Americans, etc. The last elected president, Ibrahim Rugova, adopted a policy of passive resistance, accomodation and compromise. He had to flee for his life to an American airbase in Germany and now lives in exile in Italy (July, 1999-Jan. 2006) Note well the dates of his presidency, they overlap the UN-NATO appointed administrators who were really running the country. It is also worthy of note that the prime minister of Kosovo during Rugova's presidency was Bujar Bukoshi who ruled from the safe distance and loving care of Germany. In plain words, the people's will as expressed by their last somewhat free election (under the guidance of America) was peace, accomodation and compromise. Since then foriegners have been running Kosovo, arming and supplying the KLA in case anyone had or has different ideas. (Remember the assassination attempt on Rogova just before he fled).

This state of affairs should be an embarrassment to any nation that proclaims democratic freedom and values. If an armed group of thugs, supplied by Germany and America was running Scotland, attempting to kill off elected leaders, under the control of a foreign governor appointed for the good of the Scots people, who with a straight face could say the Scots have decided anything about what they want?

Cymro · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject:

To Cymro;

The word "lie" is an emotionally loaded word that implies several things. I would think it is clear from the history of Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq that the western nations have their own ideas about pursuing their best interests. They merely cloak it with an overlay of emotionally loaded propaganda, remember "Operation Freedom" in Iraq.

That should not prevent any reasonably intelligent person from assessing the facts as they stand without embellishment one way or the other. It is an error to blame "both sides" however; the true obscenity iss that the people of that area find themselves under the dominance of modern warlords who offer death and destruction for any reason, or no reason at all. They want to live as much as you do.

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject:

To WIlliam Cleland

Although it is a part of the conventional and accepted wisdom to portray events in the Balkans as having originated at Paris in 1919, even a casual knowledge of the history of the Balkans shows that is not true at all. See: CL Sultzberger "A long Row of Candles" for instance.

If you think this is all about Serb chauvanism, let me lay a quote on you right out of your favorite source, Wikipedia:

"Mustafa Kruja, the Prime Minister of Albania, was in Kosovo in June 1942, and at a meeting with the Albanian leaders of Kosovo, he said: "We should endeavor to ensure that the Serb population of Kosovo be – the area be cleansed of them and all Serbs who had been living there for centuries should be termed colonialists and sent to concentration camps in Albania. The Serb settlers should be killed."[9][10]"

William_Cleland · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 778

I've just been talking about the Great Migration of the 1690s so I don't think I need any lectures about history not starting in 1919. Smile

I know all about what the Balli Kombetar got up to. Not sure how that is in any way relevant to whether Kosovo has certain parallels with Northern Ireland. Both sides committing atrocities at various points tends to be typical of most ethnic conflicts.

Cymro · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:

thebauer · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 20 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

[quote="William_Cleland"]That the best you can do? There are plenty of other sources on stuff like the Great Migration of 1690 besides wikipedia.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-43574/Serbia

[i]The greatest of these revolts took place in 1690, when Serbs rose in support of an Austrian invasion. The Habsburg forces, unable to sustain their advance, retreated back across the Sava, leaving the native population seriously exposed to Turkish reprisals. In 1691 Archbishop Arsenije III Crnojevic of Pec led a migration of 30,000–40,000 families from “Old Serbia” and southern Bosnia across the Danube and Sava. There they were settled and became the basis of the Austrian Militärgrenze, or Military Frontier. (The Slavic name for the region, Vojna Krajina, was used 300 years later in the title given to the areas of Croatia that local Serb majorities attempted to claim for Serbia following the secession of Croatia from Yugoslavia.) Also dating from the time of the great migration of 1691 was the gradual conversion of Kosovo-Metohija into a predominantly Albanian region, as Albanians filled the space left by the displaced Serbs.[/i][/quote]

ah yes, 1690. must have been something in the air that year, idiots still squabble over idotic battles that happened and idiotic amount of years ago.idiots all round.

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject:

To cymro;

Actually the UK forces were in VietNam:

207 Squadron Royal Air Force Association: Maintaining the tradition, fellowship and history of this famous bomber squadron (1916-1984).

656 Squadron Association: An active Squadron, from Burma in 1943 to UK today.

The point I was trying to make was that the political history of VietNam was all made up out of whole cloth by France and America, even in the face of directly contradictory news reports.

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:

To William Cleland;

On that point we agree.

Cymro · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject:

To cymro,

The KLA credits itself with launching hostilities against the Serbs in Kosovo, in the name of national liberation, in 1997-1998. In 1999, UN appointed administration began under the exclusive control of UN and NATO.
"In 1999, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 placed Kosovo under transitional UN administration pending a determination of Kosovo's future status. This Resolution entrusted the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) with sweeping powers to govern Kosovo, but also directed UNMIK to establish interim institutions of self-governance." Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War_.281996-1999.29

The head of the KLA at that time was one Hashim Thaci:
"Thaci is known to have extensive criminal links. During the period of time when Thaci was head of the Kosovo Liberation Army, it was reported by the Washington Times to be financing its activities by trafficking heroin and cocaine into western Europe.[3] While Thaci was head of the Democratic Party of Kosovo, the party regularly used violence and intimidation of political rivals to maintain political control. This was done in order to protect criminal enterprises that depended upon cooperation from friendly local authorities.[4] According to Can Karpat, writing for AxisGlobe.com,

Thaci is also known as the organiser of the Drenica-Group. The group controlled between 10-15 per cent of criminal activities in Kosovo in connection with smuggling of arms, stolen cars, oil and cigarettes as well as with prostitution, the establishment and maintenance of connections with the Albanian, Czech and Macedonian mafia. Other than that, Thaci’s sister is married to Sejdija Bajrush, one of the leaders of the notorious Albanian mafia.[5]" Again the source is Wikepedia and also Google.

However as early as 1988, the press in europe was reporting that it was German and American intelligence that was training and equipping the KLA:
"Nevertheless, by February 1998, the KLA had been removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list [3]. According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[11] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[12] Former senior adviser to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[13] According to The Sunday Times, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia" [4]. The source is WIkepedia, Kosovo Liberation Army.

Subsequently, as of 2002, WIkepedia says this about the KLA:
"The KLA legacy remains powerful within Kosovo. Its former members still play a major role in Kosovar politics; its former political head Hashim Thaci is now the leader of the Democratic Party of Kosovo and the prime minister of Kosovo since January 2008, one of the province's leading political opposition parties. Ramush Haradinaj, a former KLA regional leader, served briefly as Prime Minister of Kosovo before he turned himself in to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague to stand trial on war crimes charges [7]. The KLA's former military head, Agim Çeku, is the current Prime Minister of Kosovo. This has caused some controversy in Serbia, as Belgrade regards him as a war criminal, though he was never indicted."

At all time while the KLA was operating. and still operates in Kosovo, Kosovo has been under UN-NATO administration. It would be difficult to explain how and why that was permitted without the direct connivance of the administration. Arms and munitions would have to come into the country through UN-NATO controlled ports and entrances. They don't sell that kind of stuff at Wal-Mart.

If you have some doubts about UK participation in Viet Nam, look at this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_veteran:
" a footnote; Much conjecture has arisen concerning the British SAS fighting in Vietnam. Successive British Governments have repeatedly denied the involvement of British troops anywhere in the Vietnam theatre of operations. These denials are now looking decidedly shabby on two fronts. It is now common knowledge that some Royal Navy surface vessels and Royal Navy personnel were in Vietnam and trained Americans to use the fast attack craft that were used extensively on the Mekong Delta and other inland waterways. The second part is that there is now no doubt that an elite unit of British soldiers fought in Vietnam from 1965 to 1967. It does however seem that this unit was not from the British SAS but an equally well trained and elite unit from the UK. Uncorroborated though compelling evidence gleaned from all sides of the conflict, point to this unit carrying out operations against both Viet Cong irregulars and regular North Vietnamese Army units with a very good record of success. Although this unit was based with the Australian and New Zealand SAS at Nui Dat as well as the joint USA/South Vietnamese base at Bien Hoa, it appears to have been a fully autonomous unit, carrying out its own operations.

There is also considerable hearsay evidence that this unit was involved in the infamous CIA led ‘Operation Phoenix’ campaign, and is credited with over 300 ‘kills’ in ‘Operation Phoenix’ during their time in Vietnam."

William_Cleland · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 778

Cymro · Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1001

Cymro wrote "Sorry RFM you've bored me here. Are you Dave Coull in disguise?" and also "I don't want another essay, just an answer".

I just happened to glance and notice my own name there. I'm not even sure what Cymro's question was, or what RFM's answer was, because I haven't read their exchange in full. So at present I can't make any comment on it, except to say that there can be occasions when the only way to give a proper answer is to write an essay. If that bores some folk, okay, so some folk will be bored. Whether or not this was one of those occasions, I can't say, not having read Cymro's and RFM's exchange in full. But as for "Are you Dave Coull in disguise?", that's an easy one, I can answer that! Dave Coull NEVER uses disguise. As quite a few folk here on this forum are well aware from their own personal experience, Dave Coull is far too conceited ever to conceal the fact that he is Dave Coull.