Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Reluctant Hero · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: 88% Want a Referendum on the EU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7273668.stm

Polls say 88% want EU referendum

Some 88% of the British public want a referendum on the EU's Lisbon Treaty, according to private polls for the I Want a Referendum (IWAR) campaign.
The unofficial ballot was conducted by postal vote last month in 10 Labour and Liberal Democrat marginal seats.

A total of 152,520 people voted, with 133,251 backing a referendum. IWAR claims the turnout is higher than that in local council elections.

Higher education minister Bill Rammell dismissed the poll as "flawed".

IWAR sent 420,000 ballot papers to voters on the publicly-available part of the electoral roll, and says turnout was 36.2% of those on the register.

Constituencies where the mini-referendums were held included those of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly, Europe Minister Jim Murphy and Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne.

'Real questions'

Mr Rammell said the turnout figure in his Harlow constituency where a vote was held was "lower than any local government election that I have ever participated in."

"There are some real questions to be answered by the organisers," he told BBC1's Politics Show.

All MPs should now take note, listen to their constituents and vote for a referendum

Labour MP Kate Hoey

"Why 10 Labour and Liberal Democrat marginal constituencies? Why not one referendum in (Tory former chancellor) Ken Clarke's constituency, who is arguing against a referendum?"

Derek Scott, former Downing Street aide and chairman of IWAR, said: "We have taken the most up-to-date and the only publicly-available register there is and on that basis it is a very substantial turnout.

"There is no reason to suppose that people who have not been sent ballot papers... would be any different.

"There is a very significant number of people across the country who want a referendum."

'Broken' pledge

IWAR is backed by Labour former ministers Kate Hoey and Frank Field and Lib Dem Mike Hancock, but has faced Labour accusations it is a Tory front rather than a genuinely cross-party organisation.

It says it only campaigned against Labour and Lib Dem MPs in marginal seats because both parties broke their pledge to hold a referendum.

The poll was carried out by Electoral Reform Services, a firm of independent election scrutineers recognised by the government and the UN.

Respondents were asked whether the UK should hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, with 88% voting 'yes'. They were also asked if the UK should approve the treaty and 89% voted against.

The result comes ahead of a Commons vote on Wednesday on a Conservative amendment to the EU Treaty Bill, calling for a referendum.

The Lisbon Treaty, also known as the EU Reform Treaty, was drawn up to replace the EU Constitution, which was abandoned in 2005 after being rejected by Dutch and French voters.

Commons vote

Ministers say it only amends the EU's existing constitution and a referendum is therefore no longer needed.

But the Tories, UKIP, SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP and various groups, including IWAR, say the two documents are substantially the same and that the public must have a say.

Some Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs also back a public vote. The Lib Dem leadership wants a referendum on the wider question of Britain's membership of the EU.

Welcoming the result, Ms Hoey said: "All MPs should now take note, listen to their constituents and vote for a referendum on Wednesday."

Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party said: "If Parliament continues to ignore the wishes of the people, as shown by these votes in just 10 constituencies, it becomes clear that to remain legitimate the Government must grant us a poll in all 646 constituencies."

_________________
Visit the Our Scotland Blog at http://our-scotland.blogspot.com/

Aventinian · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

Just goes to show the completely ludicrous nature of this whole referendum culture.

The vast majority of people have absolutely no understanding of the content of the Lisbon Treaty and will vote not on it, but on the performance of the government and on whether they like the EU or not.

The EU tried to open up to the people of Europe, and to give them the opportunity to shape their constitutional future. They rejected that. Now, the very important task of reform must be undertaken independently of the Constitutional Treaty and, just as with other treaties, that does not involve the approval of the citizenry.

But, of course, ask any idiot if he wants a referendum on a controversial subject and he's likely to say yes.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.'

Holebender · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:06 am Post subject:

Indeed. Libertarians, usually, just want things their own way and don't give a damn about anyone else or how having their own way might affect those around them.

I strongly support personal freedom, but not at anyone else's expense.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Aventinian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:22 am Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:

As a point of fact, at no time have I insisted on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I was merely pointing out the meaning of your earlier statement about the governing bodies of the EU's attitude to consulting the citizens of the EU.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 996

Holebender writes (to Aventinian) “We can have our say as long as we say what those in charge want us to say! I am very surprised that a self-professed libertarian could write this without batting an eye”.

Aventinian responds “Kindly remember that libertarians are not generally very sympathetic to the idea government policy being dictated democratically”.

Aventinian uses the word “libertarian” in a very narrow sense. There is a Libertarian Party in the USA, but that political party’s policies are most certainly not supported by all who describe themselves as libertarians, any more than the Nichol Stephen’s Liberal Democrats.are supported by all those who consider themselves liberal-minded democrats. Now, Aventinian may not confine the description “libertarian” to those who support a particular political party, but nevertheless he does use the term in a very narrow sense of his own.

The slogan of the French revolution was “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”. There are some who claim to be in favour of Liberty who are opposed to Equality, and as for Fraternity, forget it. At the time of the French Revolution, Robert Burns was a member of a “Fraternity”, a brotherhood, the Freemasons. But he also wrote more generally about worldwide brotherhood (A Man’s A Man For A’ That) and he also wrote about the sisterhood of women (Then gently scan thy fellow man, and gentler still sister woman). Nowadays, many French folk interpret the Revolution’s slogan “fraternity” as “solidarity” with our fellow humans of both genders. (No, this does NOT mean the political party called Solidarity!) Before the French Revolution, there were some aristocratic French intellectuals who were in favour of Liberty in the sense of being able to think and say what they liked, but who feared public policy being dictated democratically because they regarded the common people as “the mob”. As it turned out, this was a perfectly justified fear for some of them, who ended up getting their heads chopped off. More generally, there can often be a disdain for “the mob” by those who profess to be in favour of Liberty, but not necessarily Democracy.

Yes, democracy can lead to some terrible outcomes. For instance, Adolf Hitler was democratically elected. But, as Winston Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government. Apart from all the others.”

I would say that a libertarian is somebody who values both liberty and democracy, but who, if there should be any conflict between these two, will chose liberty as a higher good than democracy. A law-abiding democrat in 1930s Germany would have had to accept that Adolf had been legally elected as Chancellor, that the Nazi laws being passed were binding, and that anybody who opposed this government and its laws was a criminal. A libertarian would have seen Adolf as an enemy of liberty, and these laws as something to be either defied, or, if that wasn’t possible, circumvented in some way.

Aventinian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject:

Morph · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject:

/I have to disagree, Churchill was a firm believer in Democracy and in the later years ofthe way put ministers in his cabinet purely to keep him in check. He also place a memo system in place throughout his political life so that he could not act on a whim. He had that much faith in democracy that he guarded it from himself
_________________
"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger"

Neil · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject:

Be interesting to see if the SNP insist on a referendum in Scotland at their conference. With Tory support along with some LibDims & the Greens equivocting it would pass in Holyrood.

It would seem a no-brainer for the SNP since it would make them popular with the electorate, make all referendums more legitimate & give them a result to argue with Westminster over.
_________________
The aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

Aventinian · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:00 am Post subject:

Neil · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:14 am Post subject:

By definition if Holyrood voted for it it would have to be a Scotland only referendum. The Tories voted for a UK wide referendum & are enthusiastic about it so I think they would jump at the chance of a Scottish one.

Also since both Labour & LibDims had a promise to hold a referendum in their manifestos & have broken that promise the Tories would love a chance to show them up. Political point scoring is a significant motivation for all parties.

Of course the referendum would be purely consultative but there would be a considerable stramash in England when we voted 80% against & they didn't get a vote. There might even be some popular spin-off in English public opinion that (A) they might show more interest in what goes on in Scotland & (B) our political opinions are not so weirdly different from their's as they often think.
_________________
The aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken