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Scott2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7308224.stm

The leader of the Roman Catholic church in Scotland has urged the prime minister to rethink "monstrous" plans to allow hybrid human-animal embryos.
Cardinal Keith O'Brien will use his Easter Sunday sermon to launch a attack on the government's proposals.

He will also call on Gordon Brown to allow Labour MPs a free vote on the issue at Westminster.

Downing Street did not respond directly to the cardinal's attack, saying Mr Brown had already made his views clear.

The prime minister has said the bill would improve research into many illnesses.

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It seems as if certain church men are so out of touch with reality - it is scary - they speak as if they have all moral authority to hold back legitimate and ethical investigations into the unknown workings of fatal diseases and are glorying in ignorance.

The attitudes of this old man who speaks for one branch of one religion in a world where many tens of thousands of religions have existed is backward looking and simplistically thinking.

The work done by genetic scientists is needed and should be encouraged.

Knowledge and scientific advances do not stop at artificial national borders
and the benefits could easily be enjoyed elsewhere in the world, where preposterious concerns can be quickly demolished by the expectation of new industries to exploit these advances and the allievation of suffering that would result.

The Catholic Church is against anything which would end whole groups of peoples suffering. Their business is in fictitious miracles to end suffering rather than explanations in rational discourse.

To say the Earth moves and is not the centre of the universe would have had you condemned to death by the holy willies holders of his office a mere 450 years ago.

It is still 2008 in his calendar and not 1558, isn't it?

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Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population

Aventinian

Scott2006 · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject:

Aventinian: Cardinal Keith O'Brien is not speaking as an individual but as a leader of a religious group and using his position to put pressure on cabinet ministers to follow his lead.

Real advances in the quality of life has been achieved through medical investigation. Religious persecution and burning people at the stake for daring to believe that there is more truth to be gained from education and applied learning than various second hand tales and fictitious accounts of the lives of a few men 20 centuries ago is unfortuately an ongoing battle.

By the way, a religion that explains nothing of how the world actually works is worse than childish - it is obscene.
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Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population

Aventinian · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:22 am Post subject:

Lord Pitsligo · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:

Scott2006 · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:09 am Post subject:

Aventinian seems to be on the side of Religion in a spectrum which has science at the other end. Science defines the spectrum it exists at every level of rational thought, while religion seeks to reassure its followers of a certain faith in something beyond themselves which is seemingly outside the boundaries of science and scientific investigation.

Religion is a form of social control. I don't think I should force anyone to conform to what I believe, but I would expect ideas to be discussed rationally and logically. There are no groups of scientists standing up this weekend attacking the works of the church in their field of 'expertise'.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/...dnews/display.var.2140418.0.0.php
(Some comments I thought were relevant to that discussion in the comments after the sunday herald article.)

None of the major scientific advances of the last 500 years were appreciated or allowed to be taught as new knowledge unless it conformed to what the church itself believed. All knowledge has to reinforce the central belief.

Galileo and Descartes had to stand up to religious observance that sought to quell new knowledge that disn't happen to be religiously revealed to them. Descartes a devout catholic rejected authority as an arbiter of faith and proclaimed that it had to be discovered through the human intellect - this was recognized as a fundamental challenge to the church and ensured that Descartes was denied a Christian burial.

Galileo was forced to retract a sensible world view which clashed with the church - the Earth moves and rotates around the sun in this solar system... if the Church had never split and Latin was the only language an educated elite could communicate in and everything not directly attributed to archangels or saints was condemned as sinful, such as questioning the grand design of an invisible god would have stymied all medical and intellectual advances.

Human beings are mammals and are animals. We seem to be the most able and best adapted animals in the history of the world. To understand the root causes of malfunctions in the genetic structure of life is a worthwhile avenue to explore. Some new technologies are only scratching the surface of what can and could be possible. In some fields of science, research can take up to 50 years of constant small advances to arrive at a complete understanding of the mechanisms involved.
The Archbishop speaks with the authority of being a good scholar of a 2000 year old book of historical stories.
Western medicine is at a great disadvantage - in the last 200 years it has made great strides in improving the quality of life of ordinary people - without a prerequisite that they follow this faith or that faith.
If medical science does unlock the mechanisms that lead to solving and resolving, the many lives lost to Motor Neuron, and diseases such as Parkinson's or Alzheimers then that has to be applauded.
What really scares the Church it seems, to me at any rate, is the long view of medical discoveries and advances - test tube babies eg could be inserted into a woman who has never had sex ie a virgin birth.
If cell death can be slowed or changed by ethical means in a country which values such knowledge - eventually - in the realm of science fiction which they seem to quote - is the option of reversing cell death in an adult body... if you can bring a man back to life... you destroy the novelty of the Jesus resurrection story - it might become a common place occurance.
Good.
Science and the better understanding of it serves the future of mankind - a religion that fights against knowledge can only undermine itself.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population

The Lithgae Jambo · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject:

Any Church is as entitled to express its opinions on a subject just as any other pressure group can.

It's ultimately up to each individual MP to make his or her mind up. Keith O'Brien can't walk them through the lobby.
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mairead · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject:

No TLJ,
He can't walk them anywhere, but he sure can influence the Catholic people, that's why churchmen/women should keep their noses out of government. He is entitled to his individual opinion as are the rest of us, but it is only HIS opinion.
Anyway, laboratory produced cells are no more human than the millions of Spermatoza that die for every egg that is fertilised. Like an egg from a female, these sperm are only POTENTIAL life forms.
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I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

Rinty · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject:

apart from that he is lying. There is no "human/animal hybid embryo" he describes it as such to make it sound more "monstrous".

One of the most reactionary bigots in the country and he threatens the catholic MPs that will be sinning and going against their church if they disagree with his warped views.

mairead · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:01 am Post subject:

Aye Rinty. That's my point too, when churchmen give their own views to the congregations. They should stick to teaching religion ond leave the poiltics to those who are elected to run the country, or we will go back to the days when the church was the power and not the governments.
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

Rinty · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:37 am Post subject:

I dont agree mairead, what I dont like is that he pressurises specific MPs and attempts to use their faith to hold them up as sinners if they challenge his views. Or present the idea that the protestant brown is bullying them into voting against their catholic faith.

He presents the case in a biased and over the top manner to scare people, epecially catholics.

I dont have a problem with clergymen speaking their mind or the churches having political views. But O'Brien loves the sound of his own voice and misrepresents this issue as he does with many others to present scare stories for catholics.

If he had just came out and stated his position that is one thing but to pressurise the catholic MPs is a problem for me.

Aventinian · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject:

"Knowledge and scientific advances do not stop at artificial national borders "

I take it you know that Mr O' Brien is a qualified scientist?

mairead · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

Grerat reply there Aventinian, NOT. Don't you ever get tired of trying to upset the Nats, and failing badly. LOL
_________________
I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life

Rinty · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject:

No, Obrien is a qualified science teacher, not a scientist.

And it would be irrelevant anyway as he has no expereince in the field and is lying and spinning on this issue.

Rinty · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject:

No, Obrien is a qualified science teacher, not a scientist.

And it would be irrelevant anyway as he has no expereince in the field and is lying and spinning on this issue.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject:

He is a qualified scientist. That's what he graduated in. The spin is he's just another scientific illiterate, which isn't true.

Rinty · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:

who is spinning that? He falsely makes claims of hybrid human/animal embryos. Having a science degree doesnt mean that he should be listened to.

Having a degree in science from 50 years ago is no substitute for the same 50 years being spent researchng the subject in hand.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject:

It still makes him a scientist...

Rinty · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject:

Yes if maths degrees makes you a mathemetician and media degrees makes you a journalist. I dont think he has ever worked as a scientist.

And there still isnt any human/animal hybrid embryos.