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Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Blackadder writes "Tibet is being illegally occupied" - I don't think it wise to get into the "legal" question. Historically speaking, it is a fact that previous Dalai Lamas acknowledged the overlordship of the Chinese Emperor in Peking. Just as some kings of Scotland before Robert bruce acknowledged the overlordship of the English king (as indeed did Bruce himself, before he changed his mind). The important thing is not "legality" or otherwise, but what is right.

Blackadder says "every right-thinking individual should be shouting about it at the very least" - what is happening in Tibet is bad. What is happening in loads of other places is bad. What is happening in Tibet is not worse than what is happening in loads of other places. Back in 1978, I joined Terry Liddle and Gary Holden in forming the Campaign to Boycott the 1980 Moscow Olympics, in order to highlight human rights abuses in the USSR. We organised demonstrations, we wrote letters to the press, we put up posters on the London Underground, and Terry flew to Moscow with some of our leaflets (they confiscated our leaflets and put him on the next plane back). Later, Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan jumped on our bandwagon, for completely hypocritical reasons. I support a campaign to disrupt the Peking Olympics, just as I will support a campaign to disrupt the London Olympics. The Olympic torch thing was dreamed up by Adolf Hitler for the Berlin Olympics of 1936, so it has been used for authoritarian propaganda right from the start.

Radge Jougal writes "Bear in mind that it is spring in Tibet, not winter" - look, virtually ALL of Tibet is higher than Ben Nevis, including the capital city. It's bloody cold there just now. Besides, apart from being summer dress, anybody who has ever been in the military, of any country, will recognise that as DRESS uniform, the kind you wear for important ceremonial parades etc, not what you wear for normal everyday use.

Radge Jougal also wrote "If there was any time when the Chinese intelligence service would be monitoring the media here, it would be now". True. "I am open to claims that this might be a fake, but this is coming from a very odd quarter." - Look, all the evidence points to it being a fake. That is true regardless of who presents the evidence. "I doubt that monasteries would lend out their clothing like this." - they don't need to. A local amateur dramatics group could probably come up with passable monks' robes, never mind a huge authoritarian enterprise like the Chinese state. This was obviously for some film a few years back.

The truth is important. The truth is that this is an obvious fake. The truth is also that all Olympics are by their very nature authoritarian enterprises which will be used by the "host" country for propaganda purposes, just as Hitler did with his invention of the Olympic torch, just as the Chinese state is doing, and just as the British state will do. Call a fake a fake, and oppose the authoritarians anyway.

mashimaro · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 04 Apr 2008 Posts: 10

Great now should we move on to the next fake?
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Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Radge Jougal wrote “Just in case you wondered why these ‘Tibetan monks’ were so violent in Lhasa....”

The idea that Tibetan Buddhism is inherently non-violent is a myth. The present Dalai Lama was just a boy when China took over, but of course the Lamaist Buddhists believe that he is the re-incarnation of all of the previous Dalai Lamas, therefore, under his regime, slavery existed in Tibet, or at least serfdom, with serfs tied to land owned by the monasteries, and forbidden to move or change their jobs. The penalty for theft under the Dalai Lama was to have a hand chopped off. The Chinese regime is a vicious dictatorship, yet that vicious dictatorship was last year forced into making concessions to workers by brave Chinese trade unionists. These concessions upset some western capitalists who feared they would mean the cost of goods from China would rise. Gordon Brown, George Bush, and other western leaders, under pressure from these western capitalists, pressed the Chinese government into withdrawing the concessions which it had made. The Dalai Lama, George Bush, and Gordon Brown are all hypocrites who have no moral authority to condemn the Chinese regime. There was violence by Tibetans in Lhasa, many of them monks. Some of that violence was unjustified, for instance, when a Chinese man was attacked on purely racist grounds, simply because he was Chinese. But some of that violence was justified. Saying that violence against the Chinese government can be justified is not an endorsement of the reactionary Lamaist ideology.

mashimaro · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 04 Apr 2008 Posts: 10

Well I think the other thing you people have forgotten is the way chid abuse is entrenched in Tibetan buddhism where one child is taken from each family to serve in the monastry or convent. These children are completely indoctrinated with no life of their own. If you think there was abuse going on in the Roman Catholic church imagine the men with more power than that doing what they please to young boys.
You can see the cult nature of this religion when parents are willing to sacrifice their children, getting them to make the perilous journey between China and Tibet so that they too can go into servitude.
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Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Blackadder wrote "I've done my share of protests, marches, flag-waving, shouting the odds and campaigning ... and my back demands a rest. Unfortunately, I'm not 25 any more."

I've probably done a lot more than my share of protests, and it's almost forty two years since I was 25. But of course we all do need to take things slightly easier as we get older.

Blackadder also says

"I actually didn't give a toss about the 'truth'".

It's important to seek to establish the truth, even when it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

In the interest of establishing the truth, I should point out that, when I said "Back in 1978, I joined Terry Liddle and Gary Holden in forming the Campaign to Boycott the 1980 Moscow Olympics", both Terry and Gary played a bigger role in this than me. But I did take part in demonstrations against the 1980 Moscow Olympics, and I did write letters about the campaign (some of which actually got published in London-based daily papers), and I did put up our campaign posters on the London Underground. But it was Terry who got stopped at Moscow airport with a rucksack full of subversive leaflets. I spoke to him on the phone a few days ago. Having suffered a pretty serious heart attack he is also taking things a bit easier these days.

But good luck to any younger person who wants to expose the Peking Olympics for the authoritarian propoganda-fest that they are. And hopefully I will still be around and still have sufficient energy to create problems for the London Olympics in 2012.

Red Justice · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:02 am Post subject:

I would like to agree with Fidel Castro and echo his words on Tibet here.

"I respect the Dalai Lama’s right to believe, but I am not obliged to
believe in the Dalai Lama."

"I do have many reasons to believe in China's victory."

Well I personally would not jump on the free Tibet bandwagon I oppose the campaign of disinformation and demonization that is targeting the People's Republic of China (PRC.) The timing of the campaign could not of been more obvious than the 2008 Summer Olympics.

While Washington is providing financial, political, diplomatic and propaganda support to the racist demonization effort, supposedly because of concern for “human rights.” This is the same government that is directly responsible for the death of one million Iraqis since 2003.

Consider that 1 our of 3 Iraqis have been killed, wounded or displaced since 2003 and Washington like many in the West are happy to have protests especially students, only providing any protest is not directed at their own capitalist imperialist governments. One pretext for the anti-China campaign is that the PRC has trade relations with Sudan. The US wants to overthrow the government of oil-rich Sudan and replace it with a puppet. It has supported “rebel groups” whoare prolonging the civil war. The people of the Sudan, who are suffering greatly, are cynically used as a fund raising vehicle by organizations that have raised tens of millions of dollars but have never spent a penny actually helping the people of Sudan, including those who live in the Darfur region.

Demonization campaigns are nothing new from the imperialists over the last two decades such campaigns have preceded the invasion of Iraq and Panama, the bombing war against Yugoslavia, and note the current threat against Iran.

Regarding Tibet, for many centuries a region of China, the hand of Washington in the latest events is obvious for anyone who wants to see. For more than 50 years, the CIA and other U.S. government agencies havetrained, funded, coordinated and supported the old feudal and repressive regime in Tibet represented by the Dalai Lama. The CIA front group the National Endowment for Democracy funds the International Campaign for Tibet, the Tibetan Youth Congress, the Tibetan People’s Uprising Movementand the Dalai Lama himself.

The U.S. maintains close ties with the Tibetan“government-in- exile” in India, whose real aim is to break away a region making up a quarter of China’s territory. These U.S. actions constitute an effort to de-stabilize and dismember the Peoples Republic of China.

The progress in education, women’s rights, employment and health care would be immediately destryed if the old serf-owning ruling elite, represented by the Dalai Lama, was brought back to power. No one, least of all progressive people, should be misled about what is really going on.

The real motivation for the anti-China campaign has nothing to do with human rights or liberation, and everything to do with an agenda of global domination. While not been always supportive of all the manifestions of the Chinese brands of Communism I indeed can see the hate campaign directed at China is about hostility from imperialism, global designs and an attempt to kill of socialism in the world.
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mashimaro · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 04 Apr 2008 Posts: 10

Well done you people. I am grateful that some people can see the reality.
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Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Red Justice wrote "I personally would not jump on the free Tibet bandwagon".

I personally haven't jumped on anybody's bandwagon. Like I already mentioned, I was first involved in starting a campaign against the Olympics in 1978. That particular time the Olympics was in Moscow, and Ronald Reagan and Maggie Thatcher, for totally hypocritical reasons, jumped on the bandwagon which Terry Liddle, Gary Holden, and myself started; but I take the view that, at least since Adolf Hitler invented the Olympic Torch in 1936, ALL Olympics are exercises in authoritarianism and deserve to be opposed. I expect Scotland to be an independent country before the London Olympics of 2012, but, whether that is so or not, if I am still alive and functioning, I will actively oppose that Olympics.

"While Washington is providing financial, political, diplomatic and propaganda support to the racist demonization effort, supposedly because of concern for 'human rights'. This is the same government that is directly responsible for the death of one million Iraqis since 2003."

I opposed the Iraq war from the start. Of course the US government is racist, murderous, and hypocritical. But the fact that this is so doesn't mean I should support what the Chinese government is doing.

"The progress in education, women’s rights, employment and health care would be immediately destroyed if the old serf-owning ruling elite, represented by the Dalai Lama, was brought back to power."

I have stated that, under the Lamaist regime, slavery and brutality existed in Tibet. It is a mistake to think that being opposed to the Peking Olympics must mean being in favour of restoring the Lamaist regime in Tibet.

"No one, least of all progressive people, should be misled about what is really going on."

I'm not being misled. I can see through propaganda from both the Lamaists and the Chinese government. My reasons for being opposed to the Peking Olympics have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama.

"The real motivation for the anti-China campaign"

China is a big place with a large part of the world's population. Being "anti-China" makes even less sense than being "anti-Africa-plus-Australia". Now, it's possible that George Dubbya Bush might be stupid enough to be anti-China, but there are plenty of folk around him who can see how little sense that makes. Besides, Dubbya and his colleagues are not calling for a boycott of the Peking Olympics. What you really mean by this loaded phrase "anti-China" is the folk who are demonstrating about the Olympic torch etc, who could be described as "anti-the-present-Chinese-government", which is not quite the same thing.

"nothing to do with human rights or liberation, and everything to do with an agenda of global domination" - no, it's Dubbya and his pals who are into global domination, and they aren't the ones doing the demonstrating.

"I would like to agree with Fidel Castro and echo his words"

Personally, I have never wanted to be ANYBODY's Little Sir Echo.

"I respect the Dalai Lama’s right to believe, but I am not obliged to believe in the Dalai Lama."

Personally, I say the Dalai Lama is a fraud. But I would still support a campaign of disruption of the Peking Olympics, for reasons which have nothing at all to do with the Dalai Lama.

Red Justice · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject:

Dave the points that I made in my post are not personally aimed at you but rather a clarification of facts. That there exists a reactionary anti-China hatefest and good luck to the capitalist liberals and some nationalist speculators on forums in Scotland but I am afraid I will be no part of it. I am a genuine Socialist and understand your response for example during the Cold War we had a similar problem of the black or white argument you were either labled pro-Soviet or an American lackey. At least you are consistent that the Lama is a reactionary (backed by the US CIA) and no one should acuse you of being anti-China. But some comfortable individuals are anti-China in the West and indeed in Scotland and deserve our contempt.

For Socialism and Liberation Not reactionary capitalist alternatives.
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RadgeJougal · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Radge Jougal says, regarding my point about most of Tibet being a high level (and therefore cold) plateau "The temperature there varies wildly within a single day".

Okay. So let's leave the question of the temperature out of it altogether. When I was in Bahrein, way back in 1960, during the cooler months we wore the standard UK-type uniform, and during the hot season we wore tropical uniform. But both of these uniforms had a "battledress" and a "ceremonial dress" type. What you wore on an everyday basis was "battledress". Not because you were going into battle, but simply because these were your "working clothes". You only wore "dress" uniform for ceremonial parades and things like that. And it's not just the British armed forces who do this. It is standard practice in all armed forces for the ceremonial uniform to be different from the everyday, "working clothes" uniform, and for it to be less frequently worn, simply because you don't want to get your best clothes dirty. You try to keep them clean for ceremonial parades.

Now take another look at that photo. These guys are not wearing their "working clothes". They are not wearing the kind of clothes they would be wearing if they were going into even a pretend "battle". They are wearing ceremonial dress uniform, neatly pressed, buttons shining, fancy epaulettes, and a red stripe down the leg of the trousers. These guys are "on parade". As for the monks' robes, the most likely explanation is that they were taking part in a film. Just like soldiers in the Irish Army took part in "Braveheart". And no, Mel Gibson didn't have to borrow the plaids for those guys from a monastery either.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

Radge Jougal wrote (about Mashimoro) "I've never seen anyone online that was almost definitely a spy - until now".

I suppose somebody who reads things that are openly available on an open forum could count as a "spy" if the intention is to collect information for purposes detrimental to the posters on that forum. Is Mashimoro an agent of the Chinese government? It's quite probable he is an employee of that government (after all, he has stated that he is in China, and millions of folk in China are state employees) but whether he is an "agent" or not is a different question. As I understand it, the number of internet users in China is over two hundred millions and rising fast, and since the government is making the teaching of English a priority (for business reasons) it stands to reason that many millions of these Chinese internet users will be able to communicate in English. Are all of them serving the purposes of the Chinese state? Well of course that is their government's INTENTION , but remember what Rabbie Burns said about the best-laid schemes. Any "spy" on here is being exposed to a variety of opinions very different from what they are used to. After Japan's first contact with Westerners, the Japanese authorities were so worried about subversive influences, they tried to cut Japan off from the rest of the world entirely. That isn't possible in the age of the internet, and if Mashimoro is here to influence us, it will definitely be a two way process.

RFM · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject:

For what it is worth, Wikepedia posts under the heading "Vehicle Registration Plates in the Peoples Republic of China", including Tibet, the colors and letter prefixes.
Vehicle plates are blue and black, with yellow being reserved for very large vehicles. For small or compact vehicles, a black plate is issued.
A yellow plate with black characters is used for automobile testing.

SO wherever that photo was taken it certainly was not anywhere in China or Tibet.

RFM · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject:

It is very likely it was taken in Hong Kong, however, if one is prepared to believe it is not all a hollywood movie set and the rickshaw is authentic.
Same source, Wikepedia, Vehicle registration plates; Hong Kong.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

RFM wrote "It is very likely it was taken in Hong Kong".

The Hong Kong film industry is BIG business. In the entire world, only Holywood and Bollywood compare. It's quite possible this was taken on the set of a film made in Hong Kong which used Chinese army personnel as extras. Mashimoro said this was in 2001, and it makes sense that they would be wearing their ceremonial dress uniform prior to changing into their "costumes", because, even though that was quite a number of years after the "handover", the Chinese army would still be very much aware of being "on view" in Hong Kong, and indeed they would be aware of the possibility of being photographed even before they were "in costume". So, shiny buttons, smart ties, etc etc.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject:

Dave, once again, you miss the point by a mile. I'm more convinced by your explanations, than someone who is an obvious plant. Even if the picture is a fake - which is possible, Mashimaro is also a fake, posing as an average board poster.

However, I do find it very fishy to see soldiers being given monks' robes like that. Bizarre in fact - where do you get such robes at such short notice? Where they living in a loft somewhere after the cultural revolution?

"And no, Mel Gibson didn't have to borrow the plaids for those guys from a monastery either."

A monastery wouldn't have plaids. Not a good comparison.

As for Mashimaro - free internet access, excellent English, apologetic for the PRC government popping up at the right time, a suspiciously good knowledge of athe "People's Liberation" Army etc. All fits. How many people have an anorak knowledge of British Army uniforms?

"That isn't possible in the age of the internet, and if Mashimoro is here to influence us, it will definitely be a two way process."

I hope so.

"Same source, Wikepedia"

Since when was Twitterpedia a source?

RFM · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject:

Radge;

You read too many spy novels. the world is not actually that way except in a feverish imagination.

Mashimaro told you he is in China. Assuming he is some sort of a Chinese agent or spy is quite a leap of imagination. His writing style suggests he is european.

You have been taken in by a sloppily made propaganda photo. Live with it.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject:

I haven't read any spy novels other than Frederic Forsyth's and a couple more.

"You have been taken in by a sloppily made propaganda photo. Live with it."

And you believed STRAIGHT AWAY a new poster, who claims to be in China, has a suspiciously good knowledge of the PLA and also speaks incredibly perfect English.

Not to mention having unfettered access to the internet.

And you claim I've been taken in. Perhaps you should apply your scepticism to more than just the photo. Don't "live" with that, deal with it.

"the world is not actually that way except in a feverish imagination."

Obviously you've not read enough about China, post-Mao. Or enough Chinese propaganda releases - they sound just like that.

Don't expect to hear much more from Mashimaro. He'll probably be on an American forum by now, trying to claim a celebration broke out in San Francisco.

RFM · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject:

Or he is only a Brit or Welshman who got a job teaching English in China. Or a Japanese businessman working in China.

Let us not think about the obvious.