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October1974
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 359
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 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Has Brown sent us on the path to Independence |
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an article in Monday 14th April's Herald by Iain MacWhirter
http://www.theherald.co.uk/featur...pinon/display.var.2193552.0.0.php
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I am not a Nationalist because I am proud to be Scottish but ashamed of the state of the country and want it improved |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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British politics is going to become very boring very quickly if every failing of the UK Government is hailed as some sort of victory for Scottish Nationalists and everything done thereby with which the Scottish Executive does not agree is hailed as a slight.
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3777
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | British politics is going to become very boring very quickly if every failing of the UK Government is hailed as some sort of victory for Scottish Nationalists and everything done thereby with which the Scottish Executive does not agree is hailed as a slight. |
Maybe so, but the fact that it's now being viewed that way by both the populace and the media speaks volumes...
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Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 996
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Aventinian wrote "British politics is going to become very boring very quickly if every failing of the UK Government is hailed as some sort of victory for Scottish Nationalists and everything done thereby with which the Scottish Executive does not agree is hailed as a slight".
Well, you might think it unfair if that should happen, but, if you were to ask the UK-based reporters for foreign newspapers for their views on this, I bet some of them would reply that it might actually make boring British politics slightly more interesting for their readers. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| azzuri wrote: | | Maybe so, but the fact that it's now being viewed that way by both the populace and the media speaks volumes... |
The media, perhaps. But then again, we must remember that we live in an age where the media generally attempt to find something emotive in everything. Even the vaguest proposals from the most obscure organisations are given space in their articles, just to cause outrage or (in the parlance of the Daily Express) 'fury', or to stir things up.
| Dave Coull wrote: | | Well, you might think it unfair if that should happen, but, if you were to ask the UK-based reporters for foreign newspapers for their views on this, I bet some of them would reply that it might actually make boring British politics slightly more interesting for their readers. |
I'm sure they got a few column inches out of 'SNP victory in 300th anniversary of the Act of Union' - but that story cannot be recycled endlessly, and in reality the meat of it is unchanging.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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RadgeJougal
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 977
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | British politics is going to become very boring very quickly if every failing of the UK Government is hailed as some sort of victory for Scottish Nationalists and everything done thereby with which the Scottish Executive does not agree is hailed as a slight. |
I hate to break it to you, but most of British politics is pretty boring. Some of it possibly deliberately so. Bureaucracy deters inspection. |
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Shagpile
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | The media, perhaps. But then again, we must remember that we live in an age where the media generally attempt to find something emotive in everything. Even the vaguest proposals from the most obscure organisations are given space in their articles, just to cause outrage or (in the parlance of the Daily Express) 'fury', or to stir things up. |
Yep, even illegal wars....
| Aventinian wrote: | | I'm sure they got a few column inches out of 'SNP victory in 300th anniversary of the Act of Union' - but that story cannot be recycled endlessly, and in reality the meat of it is unchanging. |
Also they did very well in their media silence of that very same celebration did they not? However, I don't believe there will be a 310th aniversary to celebrate, do you.... honestly? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Shagpile wrote: | | Yep, even illegal wars.... |
That doesn't make sense as a reply to the comment which you quoted.
| Quote: | | Also they did very well in their media silence of that very same celebration did they not? However, I don't believe there will be a 310th aniversary to celebrate, do you.... honestly? |
Er, yes. I believe the United Kingdom will probably continue to exist for at least another century, before likely being subsumed into a federal Europe or something else similar.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1269
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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As I said elsewhere... totally impervious to the evidence.
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Shagpile
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | The media, perhaps. But then again, we must remember that we live in an age where the media generally attempt to find something emotive in everything. Even the vaguest proposals from the most obscure organisations are given space in their articles, just to cause outrage or (in the parlance of the Daily Express) 'fury', or to stir things up. |
Yes, clumsy Aventinian. Sorry for that.
What I was trying to imply is that the media drop objectivity in favour of emotion ie Back the Troops, never mind they were sent to Iraq illegally.
It's not the fault of the journalist all the time, they have a living to make after all, as do the editors. It's the owners who call the shots. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever see real investigative journalism again like 'Watergate'. The BEEB did try it recently, and the Director General was replaced by the government he was criticising. |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 305
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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http://commentisfree.guardian.co....is_brown_the_unions_downfall.html
Iain MacWhirter April 14th 3pm in CommentisFree section of Grauniad
seemingly very similar article
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The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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chicmac
Nationalist
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Shagpile wrote: |
It's not the fault of the journalist all the time, they have a living to make after all, as do the editors. It's the owners who call the shots. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever see real investigative journalism again like 'Watergate'. The BEEB did try it recently, and the Director General was replaced by the government he was criticising. |
Do a search for Murray Ritchie recently political editor of the Herald.
As an insider his claims must hold credence.
Here is an example
http://scottishpolitics.blogspot....etter-to-mainstream-scottish.html
And the Herald is probably the least offender for political bias in Scotland.
Edit: I should have given the direct link because the one quoted in that article didn't work when I just checked it there.
http://www.scottishindependence.com/politicsandpress.htm
Oh and since this and since his effective marginalisation at the BBC (love to know which was the chicken and which was the egg there), Iain McWhirter has given very balanced reports.
So the 'no balanced journalists' no longer applies. |
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Shagpile
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | | So the 'no balanced journalists' no longer applies |
Chick, the vast majority of Scottish journalists are 'unbalanced' and the links you've posted demonstrate that clearly.
As I understand the BEEBs charter they are; in addition to other things, to educate and promote the union. Well there's a contradiction for starters.
Last year's run-up to the Scottish elections was reported differently by CNN and the BBC. The former reported that the majority of business in Scotland did not see the possibility of independence as a threat, but rather as an oppertunity. The latter reported the opposite. Given the contents of your own links, which would you believe?
After the Hutton inquiry the BBC lost it's Chairman and Director General. Again, your links give a wee insight to maybe why.
Woodward and Bernstein were not so restricted, when without internet or mobile phones they investigated 'Watergate' and brought down Nixon. Exposing the unbelievable.
Murray Ritchie is right though, it will improve. Though for me it's more simple, they cannot report the way they do presently the closer we get to independence. At the way this present minority SNP government is going it's very possible that they will return a majority of MSPs come the next election. What would the Hootsmon and the Retard report then? Eh... Ooops!? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Shagpile wrote: |
As I understand the BEEBs charter they are; in addition to other things, to educate and promote the union. |
Of course there isn't.
Moreover, it's ludicrous given the evidence that the BBC are remotely pro-government. Accuse them of having their own agenda by all means.
| Quote: | | Murray Ritchie is right though, it will improve. Though for me it's more simple, they cannot report the way they do presently the closer we get to independence. At the way this present minority SNP government is going it's very possible that they will return a majority of MSPs come the next election. What would the Hootsmon and the Retard report then? Eh... Ooops!? |
I don't think that's remotely possible, nor do I think under a year (characterised by abject failure to fulfil almost every promise made) is a representative example of how the SNP is performing and how the election battle will go in 2011.
Doubtless though, half the Nationalist movement is rubbing its hands together at the idea of an SNP Government obstructing the free press in any way possible. Absolute control over propag... er... broadcasting would be the SNP's moistest dream come into reality.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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chicmac
Nationalist
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: |
As I understand the BEEBs charter they are; in addition to other things, to educate and promote the union. |
Of course there isn't.
Moreover, it's ludicrous given the evidence that the BBC are remotely pro-government. Accuse them of having their own agenda by all means.
| Quote: | | Murray Ritchie is right though, it will improve. Though for me it's more simple, they cannot report the way they do presently the closer we get to independence. At the way this present minority SNP government is going it's very possible that they will return a majority of MSPs come the next election. What would the Hootsmon and the Retard report then? Eh... Ooops!? |
I don't think that's remotely possible, nor do I think under a year (characterised by abject failure to fulfil almost every promise made) is a representative example of how the SNP is performing and how the election battle will go in 2011.
Doubtless though, half the Nationalist movement is rubbing its hands together at the idea of an SNP Government obstructing the free press in any way possible. Absolute control over propag... er... broadcasting would be the SNP's moistest dream come into reality. |
edited due to acknowledgement of futility. |
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Economist
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 939
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Doubtless though, half the Nationalist movement is rubbing its hands together at the idea of an SNP Government obstructing the free press in any way possible. Absolute control over propag... er... broadcasting would be the SNP's moistest dream come into reality. |
It's probably more your own moistest dream that this were ever true than any close approximation to reality on the ground.
The press in Scotland do not exactly cover themselves in glory on a wide range of levels.
For those of us, who believe in Scottish independence, it is of course a substantial irritant that the less literate rags amongst the Scottish newspapers (which goes for most of them probably), parrot Unionist propaganda as if it were some quasi-fundamentalist Christian gospel and shower Unionist dogma all over the place like manure from a muckspreader.
It's where those comparisons with East Germany, are perhaps not as invalid as they perhaps seem.
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Taurus excreta cerebrum vincit - Bullshit baffles brains |
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Shagpile
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: |
As I understand the BEEBs charter they are; in addition to other things, to educate and promote the union. |
Of course there isn't.
Moreover, it's ludicrous given the evidence that the BBC are remotely pro-government. Accuse them of having their own agenda by all means. |
Of course there is Aventinian:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/ass...ent/royalchartersealed_sept06.txt
| Quote: | 4. The Public Purposes
The Public Purposes of the BBC are as follows—
(a)
sustaining citizenship and civil society;
(b)
promoting education and learning;
(c)
stimulating creativity and cultural excellence;
(d)
representing the UK, its nations, regions and communities;
(e)
bringing the UK to the world and the world to the UK;
(f ) in promoting its other purposes, helping to deliver to the public the
benefit of emerging communications technologies and services and, in
addition, taking a leading role in the switchover to digital television.
5. How the BBC promotes its Public Purposes: the BBC’s mission to
inform, educate and entertain
(1)
The BBC’s main activities should be the promotion of its Public Purposes
through the provision of output which consists of information, education and
entertainment, supplied by means of—
(a)
television, radio and online services;
(b)
similar or related services which make output generally available and
which may be in forms or by means of technologies which either have
not previously been used by the BBC or which have yet to be developed. |
As you can see from the above...
sustaining citizenship and civil society
The 'British' citizenship is it not?
bringing the UK to the world and the world to the UK
Difficult to bring a fragmenting UK to the world, would you agree? Better to ignore rising views from across all the home nations looking towards independence?
The BBC’s main activities should be the promotion of its Public Purposes through the provision of output which consists of information
Oh I see, now bearing in mind that the Minister for Culture and Sport is responsible for these remits (a Unionist) and as likely their successor (who ever wins the next UK election will also be a unionist) will always demand that the case for 'The Union' will always prevail.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: | | Murray Ritchie is right though, it will improve. Though for me it's more simple, they cannot report the way they do presently the closer we get to independence. At the way this present minority SNP government is going it's very possible that they will return a majority of MSPs come the next election. What would the Hootsmon and the Retard report then? Eh... Ooops!? |
I don't think that's remotely possible, nor do I think under a year (characterised by abject failure to fulfil almost every promise made) is a representative example of how the SNP is performing and how the election battle will go in 2011.
Doubtless though, half the Nationalist movement is rubbing its hands together at the idea of an SNP Government obstructing the free press in any way possible. Absolute control over propag... er... broadcasting would be the SNP's moistest dream come into reality. |
IMHO, the present Scottish government is very popular with the electorate. A minority government is hardly likely to deliver on all it's promises, but in the end that won't matter, popularity does matter.
They wouldn't be the first government not to deliver on all their promises either, would they? Look at Liebour and the majority in Westminster. They did the exact opposite to what they promised re tuition fees!
Wrestling control of "propag... er... broadcasting" from Westminster would only benefit those in Scotland. It might bring some balance as to how current affairs are reported. |
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mal
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: |
As I understand the BEEBs charter they are; in addition to other things, to educate and promote the union. |
Of course there isn't.
Moreover, it's ludicrous given the evidence that the BBC are remotely pro-government. Accuse them of having their own agenda by all means.
| Quote: | | Murray Ritchie is right though, it will improve. Though for me it's more simple, they cannot report the way they do presently the closer we get to independence. At the way this present minority SNP government is going it's very possible that they will return a majority of MSPs come the next election. What would the Hootsmon and the Retard report then? Eh... Ooops!? |
I don't think that's remotely possible, nor do I think under a year (characterised by abject failure to fulfil almost every promise made) is a representative example of how the SNP is performing and how the election battle will go in 2011.
Doubtless though, half the Nationalist movement is rubbing its hands together at the idea of an SNP Government obstructing the free press in any way possible. Absolute control over propag... er... broadcasting would be the SNP's moistest dream come into reality. |
edited due to acknowledgement of futility. |
Thought i`d pay a visit to the forum to see if things had changed and these six words convinced me otherwise  |
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George
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 610
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Take a look at any Scottish political forum now and you can see that those posters seeking to defend the Union are almost universally treated with contempt and scorn.
It isn't that the recent arguments have included the usual xenophobes, racists, anti_English, bigots, fascists, Nazis slurs, with some new ones added 'supporters of Ismalic fundamentalists' was one and 'flag burners' was another. It's that it now appears that these are their only arguments, even from those in responsible positions..........trolling has become their only currency.
Now we have another from the pantomime villain: The SNP will curtail a free press and the broadcast media will be restricted to producing propoganda.
Like most of his postings these days, I don't waste my time responding directly.........he can believe what he wants and his opinions are harmless.
I believe that this is no more than the futile baying of a small group who are fast realising that their time is up. They will throw all sorts of derogatory and insulting abuse as they begin to fade, but fade they will. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Shagpile wrote: | sustaining citizenship and civil society
The 'British' citizenship is it not? |
Citizenship in this context, much like 'citizenship lessons' etc is nothing remotely political or even in relation to the citizenship of the state. It's a sloppy term for the interrelation between the individual and society.
| Quote: | bringing the UK to the world and the world to the UK
Difficult to bring a fragmenting UK to the world, would you agree? |
There's nothing remotely fragmented about the UK.
| Quote: | | The BBC’s main activities should be the promotion of its Public Purposes through the provision of output which consists of information |
I can't imagine how you can be serious with this one.
| Quote: | | Oh I see, now bearing in mind that the Minister for Culture and Sport is responsible for these remits (a Unionist) and as likely their successor (who ever wins the next UK election will also be a unionist) will always demand that the case for 'The Union' will always prevail. |
Does he presently demand the case for socialism is made on the BBC? Again, if you think the BBC is pro-government, you're ignoring huge swathes of evidence.
No, the SoS for Culture, Media and Sport is not responsible for fulfilling this, the Governors and Director-General of the BBC are.
| Quote: | | A minority government is hardly likely to deliver on all it's promises, but in the end that won't matter, popularity does matter. |
It doesn't matter that a government is unwilling to do what it promised?
It's got nothing to do with being a minority government - they could negotiate a great deal more of their manifesto if they wished to. They don't, because they've realised it's impossible.
| Quote: | | Wrestling control of "propag... er... broadcasting" from Westminster would only benefit those in Scotland. |
Scottish nationalists, you mean?
_________________
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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