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RadgeJougal · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject:

No, I don't think so. Not with that line justifying the conquest of Tibet. Either Chinese or a rabid Maoist.

Oh, I really believe the average "Brit teaching English" has an anorak's knowledge of the PLA. Rolling Eyes

Apply the same scepticism to him/her you did to the picture. Think of the timing and the context. Someone obviously scouting the British media while the torch went through the UK...

I get the impression that the Chinese government is embarassed by the picture, fake or not, and has prepared damage control. Of course, if we knew everything that China did in Tibet, people would be considerably more hostile towards the PRC.

RFM · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject:

Or more skeptcal of the Tibetans and their strange relationship with the USA and England.

Red Justice · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject:

Well what about the CIA activities in Tibet. Or the misrepresentation of the truth about Tibetan riots by Western and US media sources. For example pictures in media of brutal actions by Nepal police in uniform being blamed on the Chinese in Tibet.

Have a look around YouTube:

Riot in Tibet: True face of western media
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas

The CIA in TIBET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY
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RFM · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject:

According to the world news reports, the protests were instigated by returning Tibetan exiles, commemorating the 1959 uprising against China, not the Tibetans living in Tibet.
The uprising of 1959 was in protest of the abolition by the Chinese of the Tibetan monarchy, which ruled the country on the principal of slavery and serfdom! In fact the exile protests appear to be a claim to return to those wonderful years of many slaves and a few priests and nobility running the country. Something like Cuba in the days of Batista in 1959.

The election of Aprl 10 was reported to be centered on two competing parties, the Maoist plank on one hand, which favored closer ties to China and the independence plank which favored "independence" whatever that would mean, but essentially a return to the thrilling days of slavery and monarchy most likely. China's terrible role in all of this was to suppress the exile's demonstrations and ensure the elections went forward. Since the opinion polls favored the Maoists to win, it is easy to see that the exiles were doing their best to prevent the elections by stirring up as much controversy and public unrest as possible.

Of course none of that is anything that the readers of Forsythe and Fleming would understand or even care about.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:

would you care to name a concrete example of imperialism, "practiced by so called left wingers"?

And you are entirely comfortable with imperialism of the American and English brand I take it? In fact you seem to be a avid fan.

RadgeJougal · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:

Much of the existence of the Soviet Union was devoted to imperialism - or extension of the Russian Empire.

Likewise East Timor was invaded by a so called left wing dictatorship.

You can still speak to people from the Iron Curtain countries, who are not CIA agents or the like who will tell you of the seething resentment of Soviet Troops. Of course, now Russia has been replaced by America there - which doesn't justify anything.

"And you are entirely comfortable with imperialism of the American and English brand I take it? "

Nope. I hate imperialism of the left and the right. No exceptions.

Oh, I'm really an avid fan. Where have you been? Most of my postings on here are for Scottish independence. Rolling Eyes

I really enjoy my country being used as an American bombing range, and for storing nuclear subs.

RFM · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject:

I am always delighted to find someone who prides themselves on what they do not know; I guess that is the basis of smugness in general.

Unless you have been residing in Tibet since 1959, you have been talking with members of the CTA, the Central Administration of Tibet of his Holiness the Dali Lama, a government in exile. Also one that can afford offices in New York, for instance, gratis from the American government, and donations from certain English and UK businesses. Quite remarkable for a country that produces nothing, has nothing, except poverty in great abundance. You also appear to be one of the "well informed about Tibet" that does not know the 1959 uprising was financed and armed by the American Central Intelligence Agency. They say so. It was the stated purpose of the March and April riots (by none other than the CTA) to commemorate the 1959 uprising against the Chinese. One is left to ask how the several members of the exile community were able to afford plane fare, food and travel back to Tibet to "commemorate" that event, if not by donations of well wishers.
It appears to be only the Americans and the French and English that think the whole demonstration was about freedom from Chinese rule. But I notice the Dali Lama is something like George W. Bush, he has trouble keeping track of his past public statements.

Since your reading abilities run to spy novels I don't think you could be expected to know that Russia and the Soviet Union are not the same entities. Imperial Russia, was and still is, to the extent any of its adherents are still around, anything except very conservative right wing. The Soviet Union, as scholars of that subject have known for over 40 years, has never invaded outside its borders with the intention of adding territory to its domains.

East Timor was invaded by the Indonesian military, backed by the USA and Australia, who had notions of a communist domino effect if the Timor political party then in power was allowed to continue. Hardly a "left-wing" bunch, wouldn't you say? Or maybe you would, I don't know.

If you have any reservations about imperialism at all, you should be cheering for the people of Tibet, not the CTA, the government in exile that wants to come back and restore the monasteries and nobility along with serfdom and slavery. The Chinese are to be congratulated for giving the Tibetans the right to choose their own government, rather than the methods we use in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine, to name a few. Or for even allowing the exiles to re-enter for the express purpose of making trouble.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 998

(from the Anarchy list, http://lists.anarchylist.org/listinfo.cgi/anarchy-list-anarchylist.org)

i've been watching this light airplane fly over the university district, here in Seattle, for the past half hour, with a banner that reads: DALAI, UR SMILES CHARM, UR ACTIONS HARM !

a police helicopter just showed up and they are playing f***ing chicken over the uni. pretty freakin' weird. so far, the plane is continuing to circle (i guess the Dalai is on campus today; he's been here in Seattle for a few days).

My favorite Dalai story: when i was in Athens, Georgia, he came to town for a visit. the old lefties held a dinner in his honor at the towns snootiest veggie/vegan restaurant. so he shows up and his aide sez that his holiness has to have meat for some health-related reason, so the flunky goes next door to a fast-food restaurant (Wendys) and brings a burger into the veggie restaurant, where the big guy eats it in front of a horrified audience. There was no trace of irony in any of this, just a cultural chasm of monumental proportions.

well, the plane is still circling (45 min or so now), while the police copter challenges it every time it completes it's circle, but so far, score one for the chinese; he just flys about 50 meters below the helicopter. they're going to need more than one chopper to stop this guy.

Roger

Tibetan Buddhists are not vegans. Due to their mountainous habitat most eat meat and use dairy products daily.

Jim

Yep, that was my point. the hosts made the assumption that the Dalai was supportive of, and indeed shared, their own dietary choices. silly of them.

likewise, many make of him an icon of political resistance when he is no such thing. one can condemn the barbarity of the chinese occupation without supporting a buddhist theocracy as a replacement.

Roger

Red Justice · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:30 am Post subject:

Posters Note: My brand of socialism is Scottish and this does not make me necessarily a supporter of brands of Communism today such as the Chinese model. However I reject any other attempt by lackeys of imperialism on this forum to suggest otherwise and will not answer posts that refer to myself as a hypocrite. My interests are clear defence of my class and recognition that any struggle for independence cannot be separated from the struggle for socialism. This is where I differ in my revolutionary analysis from bougeois nationalists and those who support independence on capitalist terms which to me is not supportable.

This article below from Yahoo is interesting.

Hundreds protest Dalai Lama in Seattle By MANUEL VALDES, Associated Press Writer

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080415/ap_on_re_us/dalai_lama

Mon Apr 14, 11:36 PM ET

SEATTLE - In a showing of pro-Chinese support, hundreds of demonstrators protested outside a college arena Monday as the Dalai Lama spoke to students on solving problems through dialogue.

Thousands of people have flocked to Seattle to hear the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader speak since he arrived Thursday for a five-day conference on compassion, but the city's Chinese community had remained largely silent until Monday.

Demonstrators held signs alleging media bias and protesting the violence from rioting by Tibetan monks.

Some echoed Beijing's stand that the Dalai Lama is behind the recent uprising against five decades of Chinese rule. Signs called the Dalai Lama a liar and a "CIA-funded militant." Many people waved large Chinese flags.

"I think that people are misinformed. They have media discrimination," demonstrator Jiange Li said. "Tibet was freed — 50 years ago."

The group chanted "We love Tibet," "Stop lying" and "Dalai, your smiles charm, your actions harm," as thousands of people filed into the University of Washington arena. A small plane flew overhead with a banner mirroring the chants.

The China-born community is the largest Asian immigrant group in Seattle, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures.

However, Seattle has historically been friendly to the Tibetan cause. The Dalai Lama has visited the city several times and has always been warmly welcomed.

Inside the arena, the Dalai Lama received an honorary degree and spoke of the importance of employing dialogue and mutual respect to solve problems.

He was greeted by a standing ovation. University president Mark Emmert welcomed the Tibetan leader, calling him the "pre-eminent spiritual leader of our time."

"You will make this century of peace," the Dalai Lama told students. "Today's world (is) heavily interdependent. Destruction of your neighbor or enemy is destruction of yourself."

He said dialogue is the only way to solve conflict, especially because he sees poverty and environmental problems increasing in the future.

While his visit to the United States was billed as nonpolitical, the Dalai Lama is expected to meet with a senior U.S. official next week to discuss China's crackdown on anti-Beijing protesters in Tibet.
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RFM · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

Red Justice,

Do not be offended by name calling. It is the resort of the uneducated and illiterate.

Regards,

RadgeJougal · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject:

RJ - the campaign to get Tibetan independence is not about the Dalai Lama. In fact, the Dalai Lama has said repeatedly it wants it to remain a colony of China in Hong Kong fashion.

"It is the resort of the uneducated and illiterate."

Not just the illiterate. The boy is a hypocrite - he goes on about how the UK terrorises Ireland, yet doesn't seem to realise that it is ten times worse in Tibet. He ignores it because he poses as a Communist.

RJ also complains that he has been tortured by the British police in Dundee. Rolling Eyes

I'd like to see him have some personal experience of the Chinese police, then he'd know how cuddly ours are.

Anyway, this is the usual level the internet sinks to. I think I have a right to condemn those who turn a blind eye to left wing atrocities, but condemn right wing ones. That's what Western intelligentsia did when Beria and Stalin liquidated their left wing colleagues. They pretended that no government "by the people" could ever do such a thing.

Oh, and by the way, I'm much more educated than you - on Tibet anyway.

"lackeys of imperialism"

That would be Mashimaro. And Red Justice (only the left wing variety).

RFM · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject:

So Tibet got its wish, right, and is going to remain an autonomous province, better than a colony I would think.
After all they certainly don't have any of the resources that Hong Kong has, other than hand-outs from the Americans and the English, in return for occasionally aggravating the Chinese. Strange it is that they do not go back to India, the CTA that is.

Apparently you do not know that the rise of the IRA was provoked by, among other things, the refusal of the Northern Irish to allow certain of its citizens the right to vote. The Chinese on the other hand allowed professed trouble makers who did not even live in Tibet to enter and participate. Who indeed is the hypocrite here?

And you got your education by mailing in breakfast cereal box tops or match-book covers?

Lewis · No Longer a Wean Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 81

RadgeJougal · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject:

"So Tibet got its wish, right, and is going to remain an autonomous province, better than a colony I would think."

It would be if it were autonomous.

"The Chinese on the other hand allowed professed trouble makers who did not even live in Tibet to enter and participate."

No they didn't. I do not believe that China let them enter knowingly.

I presume you think that China is some form of humanitarian democracy do you?

"No surprise there."

The Western media never covered it. The Western media did not lie about Tibet being a country, or being invaded or being oppressed. None of these things are complete fabrications of the western media.

Nor did they make the Tibetans look quite different to most Chinese people. Or make them use a completely different writing system, language, or their own culture.

In fact, until this year, the Western Media tended to ignore Tibet altogether, while giving Kosovo, Zimbabwe and Palestine plenty of coverage.

Amazing how people can believe what is told them by one Chinese apologist who's made less than a dozen posts to this forum.

RFM · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject:

It seems that the Chinese released a report in January 2007, which revealed the discovery of large mineral deposits in Tibet, worth approximately $128 billion dollars.
Of course the Tibetan government in exile sees that as something worth fighting about, particularly as it is located in Tibet. The point is, like modern Africa, whoever controls the government is going to become very wealthy, and also like modern Africa, the people will continue to live in dire poverty.

From the view point of the Tibetan citizen, however, increased mineral wealth, just like oil should result in a rise in the standard of living of all. Perhaps the recent election results mean that they know this.

Lewis · No Longer a Wean Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 81

I was pointing out that the Media do like to exaggerate stories, but I would be merely stating the bloody obvious.

I agree that Tibet was illegally annexed, it was join with China or we invade and kill you all. Those who did Scottish History may notice a tiny parallel.

I highly doubt China will let go of Tibet any time soon, and even if the world goes against them (which I also highly doubt) they won't let go. The only thing we can do is continue to put pressure on the Chinese government and keep going. There is no harm in trying.
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RFM · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject:

Hello Lewis,

I take it you do not read newspapers either. The Tibetans had an election on April 10 and the party that ran on a plank of close ties to China won in a virtual landslide. The party that ran on independence came last.

Where do you get off telling anybody that we need to pressure them to choose a government they obviously have rejected in an open, free and fair election?

RadgeJougal · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject:

"The Tibetans had an election on April 10 and the party that ran on a plank of close ties to China won in a virtual landslide. The party that ran on independence came last. "

Sounds a bit like East German elections, also totally "democratic". Apart from the fact that many of ther voters are Han Chinese, and also the forms are completely in that language.

Maybe Mugabe should move to Tibet.

RFM · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject:

Sounds like sour grapes to me.