Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

Holebender · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:47 am Post subject:

Single-handed? She had help for all her Unionist pals.

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William_Cleland · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:50 am Post subject:

Before you guys get too excited, bear in mind that the person who frames the legislation gets to set the question and you only need to look at opinion poll data to see the kind of influence that can have. The Tories appear to be dead set against it so the Lib Dems, the Greens and Margo all have to back it for it to happen because otherwise it would all boil down to the Presiding Officer's casting vote and he's a Tory. Probably still a long shot at this point in other words.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1091

The official reason for not pressing ahead with a referendum "now" is that "people are entitled to judge the SNP on their performance in government first". But the whole point of a referendum is that it gives people the chance to answer a single question, without committing themselves on a hundred other questions. In a referendum, they can vote for independence without committing themselves one way or the other on plans for large golf parks in the North East of Scotland. In a referendum, they can vote for independence without thinking that a local income tax is the best idea since sliced bread. A referendum is about whether we should be independent, NOT about which political party should form the government of an independent Scotland.

Some months ago myself and three colleagues held a small demonstration at the Scottish Parliament, advocating "REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO". I could scarcely believe my eyes when I read that Wendy Alexander has abandoned her earlier opposition and come round to supporting this demand. I can still hardly believe it's real, but it's a fact that, on taking office at Westminster in 1997, the Labour Party did manage to organise a referendum on a Scottish parliament within a few months. It would be ironic indeed if the Scottish Government allows itself to get into a position of appearing to be the ones favouring delay - and it would be even more ironic if "independent" campaigning groups such as the Scottish Independence Convention should get themselves into a position of appearing to go along with this.

There is going to be a referendum on independence. That is now pretty much a certainty. There will be arguments about the timing. There will be arguments about the wording of the question. There may be attempts to add conditions. But it is looking like, sooner or later, and perhaps sooner than some had thought possible, a referendum bill could get through the Scottish Parliament.

This creates an entirely new situation. Both the National Conversation sponsored by the SNP government and the Calman Commission backed by the Labour Party now look as if they are struggling to have very much in the way of a purpose.

In this new situation, those of us who have been campaigning, on a non-party-political basis, for a referendum on independence, and with the intention of campaigning for independence in that referendum, have to reconsider our priorities.

It now becomes vitally important to ensure that the referendum question is not loaded. We have to keep up the pressure for a simple, straightforward, independence-yes-or-no type question.

We also have to insist that the result of the referendum should be based on a simple majority. None of that counting the dead (but still on the Electoral Register) as “no” votes, as happened in 1979.

We also have to start thinking about what part, individually and collectively, we will be playing in the actual campaign for the “yes”, or pro-independence, vote in the referendum itself.

William_Cleland · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:31 am Post subject:

Reluctant Hero · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:

It would be one of the greatest travesties in recent political history if given the current situation we are in, no referendum on independence takes place.

The fear I have is that if Alexander brings forward her own parliamentary bill and the SNP vote against it (because they don't like the wording or something) then in 2010 when the SNP bring forward their bill, Labour vote against it.

Then we will have no referendum and a lot of pissed off people.
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Shagpile · No Longer a Wean Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 89

Alasdair · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject:

Alasdair · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject:

doodells · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject:

It sounds like wendy (or someone close) has had a brain-wave, risky but probably more effective than anything else she could come up with. She has finally realised that the SNP and their serious threat of independence will not go away. The Scottish Labour Party have realised that the commission can not be relied upon so they must get involved if they want to have any input or control over the timetable and details of the referendum. Its simply a matter of getting involved in something that is inevitable.

But does she really think that everyone is that stupid? Or is she just hoping that certain newspapers will cooperate in pressurising the SNP and forget her complete opposition to the referendum?

Scotland has waited long enough for a referendum, I don't see any harm in Salmond holding off for 2 more years especially if he thinks there is more chance of a yes vote.

Wendy says they are standing in the way of the Scottish people's right to vote down the independence question. I say Wendy is regurgitating Salmond's words and I dont believe people are as shallow as her.
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William_Cleland · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1091

doodells wrote “Scotland has waited long enough for a referendum” - indeed it has. All the more reason not to have even more delay.

“I don't see any harm in Salmond holding off for 2 more years especially if he thinks there is more chance of a yes vote” .

The harm is that this can look like it is being done for party political reasons, yet a referendum is supposed to be a non-party-political matter. The official reason for not pressing ahead with a referendum sooner is that "people are entitled to judge the SNP on their performance in government first". But the whole point of a referendum is that it gives people the chance to answer a single question, without committing themselves on a hundred other questions. In a referendum, people can vote for independence without committing themselves one way or the other on plans for large golf parks in the North East of Scotland. In a referendum, people can vote for independence without thinking that a local income tax is the best idea since sliced bread. A referendum is about whether we should be independent, NOT about which political party should form the government of Scotland.

I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember this (I am) but when Harold Wilson’s Labour government called a referendum on the “Common Market”, he recognised that the Labour Party were split on the issue, and he allowed senior members of his government to campaign on opposite sides in that referendum. The “yes” campaign had Labour, Tory, Liberal, etc, prominently involved, and so did the “no” campaign.

THAT is what Alex Salmond should be challenging Wendy, and the other unionist party leaders, to do, to allow not just a free vote but to allow members of their party to campaign on opposite sides in the referendum, without any reprisals being taken. And don’t tell me there are no Labour members who would support independence. I happen to know different.

Appearing to delay a referendum for what look like party political reasons plays into the hands of those who want the referendum conducted purely on party-political lines. It also gives an impression of being worried about the outcome, which is completely the wrong thing to do. For if the trumpet sound an uncertain note, who shall prepare himself for battle?

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1091

Agentmancuso wrote "Striking imagery Mr Coull".

I remember Maggie Thatcher using the quote, but she didn't invent it any more than I did. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 14, Verse 8.

Reluctant Hero · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject:

Today in PMQ's, Brown denied that Alexander had said that she wanted a referendum, yet last night on Newsnight she told Brewer that she had agreed it with Brown.

Labour are a shambles at the moment.

Although Salmond is calling for Alexander to go, he may well want her to stay in the hotseat for a long time yet as the amount of political gain he is getting from her is better than he could ever have imagined.
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chicmac · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject:

Reluctant Hero · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject:

According to the Beeb, he said this, which is as good as calling for her to go.

chicmac · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:00 am Post subject:

Also notable today - on the Daily Politics, Brian Wilson, former Scotland Office minister, made the point that it is not within the powers of the Scottish Parliament to have a referendum and whilst a debate and vote may be held on approving the idea, it was ultimately down to Westminster to grant.

Andy Burnham, the SoS for Culture, Media and Sport, representing the cabinet, seemed to agree with this analysis, as did Nick Robinson - who made something of a lengthy speech on it.
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