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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: Knox Not Responsible For English |
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Knox did not insist Scots Bible be in English
I refer to Chris McColl's letter (January 30) in which he stated that "John Knox insisted the Bible for the Church of Scotland be printed in English". John Knox died in 1572 and the first Bible to be printed in Scotland was not authorised by the General Assembly until 1575 and was not published until 1579. It was the General Assembly which insisted that this Bible follow the English-language Geneva Bible of 1562.
The Parliament of Scotland had provided as early as 1543 "that it sal be lefull to all our sovirane ladyis leiges to haif the haly writ, bai the new testament and the auld in the vulgar toung in Inglis or Scottis of ane gude and trew translatioun".
However, until 1579 all printed Bibles (and Testaments) had to be imported (illegally until 1543) with the only printed Bibles (and Testaments) available in "Inglis or Scottis" being the English-language series, based on William Tyndale's translations from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek between c.1526 and his martyrdom in 1536 and culminating in the 1560-1562 Genevan revisions (from the Hebrew and Aramaic) of the parts of the Old Testament which Miles Coverdale had translated (c.1535) from German and Latin.
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The only significant early translation of any part of the Bible into Scots was the New Testament completed in manuscript by Murdoch Nisbet (Ayrshire) by c.1538 but this remained out of the public domain until "discovered" in 1893 and was not printed and published until 1901-1905.
Further, as Nisbet's text was based on a Vulgate-based Wycliffite manuscript (dating from c.1385) it is unlikely, even if his work had been know about beyond his immediate family, that there would have been interest in reformist circles in his version (a tertiary translation - Greek to Latin to English to Scots) when primary translations (Greek to English), such as Tyndale's were becoming available. Indeed, a direct translation of the complete Greek New Testament into Scots was not to become available until that of William Lorimer's as first published in 1983.
However, in addition to the influence of English-language Bibles on the language(s) of Scotland from the 16th century onwards, almost equally influential were the Church of Scotlands use of other English-language publications such as the Anglo-Genevan Psalter of 1556-1561 and the first Book of Common Order of 1564 as from the English-speaking Protestant Congregations in Frankfurt and Geneva where John Knox ministered in 1554-1555 and 1556-1559, respectively.
Dr Alexander S Waugh, Kincardineshire.
The Herald, 2nd February 2009
http://www.theherald.co.uk/featur...ist_Scots_Bible_be_in_English.php
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Either way, on these islands, English is the language of the Reformation.
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It's murder every week at Firhill. |
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jamesieboy
Helping with the Count
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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John Knox - Great Guy.
Not by early 21st century standards. But he did do some good things.
A school in every parish, for example. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Only problem is that meant a teacher in every parish too. Every silver lining has a cloud.
Seriously though, who (apart from Knox) said that was Knox's idea? Just because he wrote the book on the Scottish Reformation doesn't mean he actually did any of the things he wrote about.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | who (apart from Knox) said that was Knox's idea? |
I was unaware that John Knox DID claim it was his idea. Could you provide a source for this? | Holebender wrote: | | Just because he wrote the book on the Scottish Reformation doesn't mean he actually did any of the things he wrote about. |
John Knox's "History of the Reformation in Scotland" is a valuable work of history, but, as with any history book, you have to treat it with some caution. Especially as a History written by somebody who was an active participant in the events he describes. He undoubtedly did some of the things he describes himself as doing (this is attested to by other sources) and he probably exaggerates his own role in some of them (see my own "History of Independence First" for comparison). But remember, Knox's "History" was written at the specific request of some of his colleagues, and he knew that they would be checking it for inaccuracies. And I repeat, I was unaware that he DID claim it was all his idea. Can you provide a reference from the "History of the Reformation in Scotland" to back up your claim? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:27 am Post subject: |
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OK, I didn't phrase that very well. I meant to say who among Knox's contemporaries claimed the school in every parish was Knox's idea? And I meant to indicate that citing Knox as a source was not acceptable because of his obvious bias.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | citing Knox as a source was not acceptable because of his obvious bias. |
All sources, without exception, have bias; this is particularly true of sources actively involved in the events they describe. Nevertheless, this is no more true of John Knox than of anybody else. What IS an established fact is that the very first General Assembly, which Knox attended and played a big part in, decided on the aim of "a school in every parish". It was a very long time before this was actually achieved, but the point is, no other country in the world even had it as an aim - most of the world (and some folk here as well, including powerful Scottish aristocrats!) took the view that educating the masses was positively a bad thing, because it would cause them to become discontented with their status in society. Scotland had this as an official aim from 1560, several CENTURIES before England did, and most of the rest of the world. Because of this policy, Robert Burns was able to read and write; if he had been born in England, the chances of somebody from his background being able to do so would have been remote. And although it was a collective decision by the very first General Assembly, the University of Edinburgh says Knox DID play a large part in the policy. Mind you, the University of Edinburgh describes the first Book of Discipline as "his" when in fact it was a collective effort, so it's possible they could be slightly exaggerating his role. This is from the history section of the web site of their Education school:
| Quote: | In August 1560 the Scottish Parliament approved a number of Acts leading to Scotland becoming a Protestant country. The Reformed Scottish Church recognised that education had to be a national priority, both for its intrinsic worth but also to ensure everyone could read the Bible.
John Knox in 1560 outlined a plan for ‘the vertue and godlie upbringing of the youth of this Realm’. Education for rich and poor alike was seen as a joint enterprise between the family, the school and the Kirk. His Book of Discipline provided an outline for the establishment of a national education scheme, which encompassed parish primary schools, burgh grammar schools, high schools and the ancient universities:
“ Therefore we judge it necessary that every several church have a schoolmaster appointed, such a one as is able, at least, to teach Grammar and the Latin tongue, if the town be of any reputation. If it be [rural] …… then must either the Reader or the Minister there appointed take care over the children and youth of the parish, to instruct them in their first rudiments, and especially in the Catechism ……
And further, we think it expedient that in every notable town …… there be erected a [High School] in which the Arts, at least Logic and Rhetoric, together with the tongues, shall be read by sufficient masters, for whom honest stipends must be appointed. ……
Lastly, the great schools called Universities shall be replenished with those apt for learning.”
At first the achievement of this aim proved difficult because of Scotland’s relative poverty and the prevailing political circumstances, despite the continuing efforts of the Kirk. However, in 1696 the Scottish Parliament passed its ‘Act for Setting Schools’ whereby every parish not already equipped with a school was required to establish a schoolhouse and to provide for a schoolmaster. The Kirk had a central role in the supervision of such schools and in the appointment of the schoolmaster or dominie. From these early developments there grew a respect in Scotland for education and learning. From the 18th century onwards parish and burgh schools provided many Scots with a good standard of education leading to Scotland at this time having the highest standard of literacy of any European nation. |
http://www.education.ed.ac.uk/abo...rayhouse/history/Part1/index.html
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