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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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heavy industry was concentrated in the north as thats where the investment was i would put that forward as the reason the protestant population diminished in the south, if you can actually put forward some credible sources which say otherwise i will be glad to see it.
rs in an ideal world i would like to see eire nua which would see a federal system in ireland under the basis of the original nine county ulster, munster connaught and leinster unfortunately though this is some way off and unity is a more immediate goal, even this is a long term one though.
it doesnt matter if it was 30 years ago unionists have been consistently against any hint of power sharing since then. Also you seem to concentrate on the system at westminster, you are aware their are other political systems out there, indeed britian is one of the few that uses an exclusively first past the post system. many nations have cross party executives and even in britain there is significant support for cnstitutional reform so your point there really holds no relevance. particularly given the fact that the last time stormont operated under majority rule there was such systematic discrimination to show that unionists could not be trusted with that type of power. you may deny this but everyone else seems to recognise it and so do the vast, vast majority of academics.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | how about a federal all-ireland with a separate Northern and Republic Parliament - would this suit both parties? |
That was offered to Ireland, with the promises of large-scale devolution, but still as a part of the United Kingdom. The south rejected it and declared independence, so I don't see why Unionists should accept the same offer with a green tinge.
In fact, it's actually less generous to Unionists as our offer was to Nationalists... after all, they're not offering any political links to Britain. I wouldn't even consider this unless it gave the Council of the Isles quite large powers, had joint citizenship of both states, etc.
Last edited by Aventinian on Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | heavy industry was concentrated in the north as thats where the investment was |
Any sources for that?
| Quote: | | it doesnt matter if it was 30 years ago unionists have been consistently against any hint of power sharing since then. |
Can you find me any example in the world of a government in peacetime eager to share power with its political opposites?
The facts are that Unionists have compromised and allowed power sharing in the interests of peace.
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Also you seem to concentrate on the system at westminster, you are aware their are other political systems out there, indeed britian is one of the few that uses an exclusively first past the post system. many nations have cross party executives and even in britain there is significant support for cnstitutional reform so your point there really holds no relevance. |
Actually I don't imagine Britain is in a small minority of first past the post systems as you make out.
If you want electoral reform, ask for it - don't use it as a disguise for your beliefs in power-sharing. The Northern Irish Assembly could have PR tomorrow and get up and running without the support or involvement of Sinn Fein - and then you'd be up in arms.
| Quote: | | particularly given the fact that the last time stormont operated under majority rule there was such systematic discrimination to show that unionists could not be trusted with that type of power. you may deny this but everyone else seems to recognise it and so do the vast, vast majority of academics. |
Considering the circumstances, I don't believe there was any great amount of state sponsored discrimination before the IRA bombing campaigns etc. Certainly the voting system that Catholics claim discriminated against them was used in Great Britain at the time too. |
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Lothian Sky
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 350
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I read somewhere that due to the higher birth rate of the nationalist community, it's only a matter of time before Ireland is united.
Do you guys have any opinion on this, or was it a load of mince? |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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lothian the census of 1991 but the catholic population at around 47% i think it was which was a considerable jump from previous figures. i am not sure on the last figures but you will find varying opinions. nationalists tend to have a higher rate of migration in the six counties and although i am unsure of the figures i know the higher catholic birth rate is slowing, as far as i am aware if present trends do continue then yes eventualy there will be a catholic majority although it may take a few generations.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | heavy industry was concentrated in the north as thats where the investment was |
Any sources for that?
you will find reference to it in practically any book you read on irish politics and the conflict. a few examples would be smiths making the peace in Ireland, Bishop & Mallies the provisional IRA or coogans the IRA.
| Quote: | | it doesnt matter if it was 30 years ago unionists have been consistently against any hint of power sharing since then. |
Can you find me any example in the world of a government in peacetime eager to share power with its political opposites?
The facts are that Unionists have compromised and allowed power sharing in the interests of peace.
well why did they only vote for it by ten votes at sunningdale and the largest unionist party is now actually anti good friday agreement?
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Also you seem to concentrate on the system at westminster, you are aware their are other political systems out there, indeed britian is one of the few that uses an exclusively first past the post system. many nations have cross party executives and even in britain there is significant support for cnstitutional reform so your point there really holds no relevance. |
Actually I don't imagine Britain is in a small minority of first past the post systems as you make out.
you can imagine that if you wish, i will look at the facts.
If you want electoral reform, ask for it - don't use it as a disguise for your beliefs in power-sharing. The Northern Irish Assembly could have PR tomorrow and get up and running without the support or involvement of Sinn Fein - and then you'd be up in arms.
i dont see your point sinn fein have a significant electoral mandate. i am most certainly up in arms about the suspension of the assembly when this is totally outwith the terms of the good friday agreement. Unionists can shout all about decommissioning all they like but it is not a pre requisite to sinn fein being in the assembly, if they think that is the case then i am afraid its not nationalists fault that they clearly cant read properly.
| Quote: | | particularly given the fact that the last time stormont operated under majority rule there was such systematic discrimination to show that unionists could not be trusted with that type of power. you may deny this but everyone else seems to recognise it and so do the vast, vast majority of academics. |
Considering the circumstances, I don't believe there was any great amount of state sponsored discrimination before the IRA bombing campaigns etc. Certainly the voting system that Catholics claim discriminated against them was used in Great Britain at the time too. |
what about the situation in derry where boundaries were gerrymandered to ensure that a unionist council was elected depsite nationalists being in the majority did this happen in britain? was there a section of the british population which made up one third of the population yet made up two thirds of its unemployed? these are facts which cannot be denied.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: |
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Them being unemployed is not an abuse in itself - the state has no duty to supply everyone with a job.
And yes, there has been a fair amount of gerrymandering in Great Britain over the years too.
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | And yes, there has been a fair amount of gerrymandering in Great Britain over the years too. |
Absolutely. That's why we now have an independent Boundaries commision. I presume that it is active in the 6 counties as well. Although I suppose you might argue about whether it is independent. Still we have cases like Cumbernauld which came up in another thread where there appears to be possible manipulation in the setting of internal council boundaries. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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oh come on now if you can provide actual figures which show that such a substantial form of gerrymandering has ever taken place on mainland britain i will be very surprised.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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There is still 'gerrymandering' going on in Ulster, even now. Only the goverment have the wit to call it redevelopment.
They had to get more nationalist/republicans onto the council. So houses were knocked down, never to be replaced. Unionists were moved to places where there was already a large unionist majority,and taken away from areas where their votes were needed.
If I remember correctly, when Joe Hendron beat Adams in the election. It was never gonna happen again. There were areas brought into West Belfast, that would ensure that Joe Hendron would never repeat his victory.
So they are all it........ english ascendancy and irish chauvinism 
Wasn't there some Tory Councillor [woman] in London was doing something along those lines......to get elected.
ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| RBK wrote: | | ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY |
Why do you say 'we' when referring to Ulster Unionists? Are the Unionists not in favour of retaining 'English ascendancy'? |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RBK wrote: | There is still 'gerrymandering' going on in Ulster, even now. Only the goverment have the wit to call it redevelopment.
They had to get more nationalist/republicans onto the council. So houses were knocked down, never to be replaced. Unionists were moved to places where there was already a large unionist majority,and taken away from areas where their votes were needed.
If I remember correctly, when Joe Hendron beat Adams in the election. It was never gonna happen again. There were areas brought into West Belfast, that would ensure that Joe Hendron would never repeat his victory.
So they are all it........ english ascendancy and irish chauvinism
and once again this couldnt have been due to the fact that the unionist population is decreasing? why would they replace houses there are no unionsts to move into, unless of course you can post figures relating to large numbers of homeless from the unionist community? Censuses have consistently shown that the nationalist population is rising as a % of the population so its really no great surprise that they need greater levels of housing.
tell the ulster scots to get the crayons out and prepare another report if they wish but at least tell them to make one its not so easy to laugh at.
Wasn't there some Tory Councillor [woman] in London was doing something along those lines......to get elected.
ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY |
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Our revenge, will be the revenge of the innocents, cruelly done to death by the murder gangs of irish republicanism.
ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY |
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Lothian Sky
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 350
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Doesn't matter what flag they fly unfortunately, a terrorist is a terrorist, and all victims of terrorism are innocent, regardless of their religion. If you're to have an Ulster nation, I would have expected some bridge building on that front! |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lothian Sky wrote: | I read somewhere that due to the higher birth rate of the nationalist community, it's only a matter of time before Ireland is united.
Do you guys have any opinion on this, or was it a load of mince? |
Well Lothian, I don't think it comes into the equation. Nationalists especially, have always been at pains to point out that British Ulster was set up on a sectarian head count. So they, I expect, would not be pushing for anything along those lines.
Lets not forget that up to a third of Roman Catholic people are said to be in favour of keeping the link with the rest of the U.K.
There were some Catholic members of the security forces R.U.C. U.D.R. who have been murdered by Irish Republicans.
So I don't think it comes down to a straight sectarian head count.
ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY |
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