 |
Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org
Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Blackleaf
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 938
Location: Lancashire
|
 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Scots history is "riddled with myth and falsehood." |
 |
|
A new book, written by an eminent historian, says that the Scottish kilt was invented by an Englishman and that Scottish history is riddle with myth and falsehood...
Kilts invented by English in Lord Dacre's book
By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Correspondent
The Telegraph
18th May 2008
The Scottish kilt was actually invented by ab Englishman
Kilts were invented by an Englishman, according to an eminent historian who claims Scots history is riddled with “myth and falsehood”.
The last book written by the late Lord Dacre of Glanton also states that the Declaration of Arbroath, which confirmed Scotland’s independence in 1320, is plagued with inaccuracies and details of “imaginary” kings.
He argues that Scotland’s literary, cultural and political traditions, which are claimed to date back from Roman times, were largely invented in the 18th century.
The book, titled The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History, is to be published at the end of this month, five years after Lord Dacre died of cancer.
Its controversial findings debunk many of the cultural arguments for Scottish independence, and are likely to fuel the current heated political debate over the country’s constitutional future.
Lord Dacre, formerly Hugh Trevor-Roper, concludes in the book: “In Scotland, it seems to me, myth has played a far more important part in history than it has in England.
“Indeed, I believe the whole history of Scotland has been coloured by myth; and that myth, in Scotland, is never driven out by reality, or by reason, but lingers on until another myth has been discovered to replace it.”
He claims that the “myth” of the ancient Highland dress was perpetuated by historians to provide a symbol by which Scots could be universally identified, as well as to support the country’s textile industry.
The traditional dress of the Highlanders was in fact a long Irish shirt and a cloak or plaid, he states, and only the higher classes had woven in stripes and colours creating tartan.
“The kilt’s appearance can, in fact, be dated within a few years,” he reveals in the book.
“For it did not evolve, it was invented. Its inventor was an English Quaker from Lancashire, Thomas Rawlinson.”
He claims Mr Rawlinson decided to shorten belted plaids after workmen in the Highlands, where he was staying, said they were uncomfortable.
Scots are also accused in the book of fabricating their own literary tradition, culminating in the publication of The Works of Ossian.
These have been claimed to have been translated from ancient sources in Gaelic about the lives of Celtic heroes.
But historians have long suspected them of being a figment of the imagination of James Macpherson, the 18th-century Scottish poet who claimed to have translated them.
Lord Dacre also declares that when the Scots were looking for a writer and poet to rival Shakespeare following the Act of Union in 1707, they found nothing.
This led to ancient writings being forged and passed off as Scottish literature.
He concludes: “It was natural that Scots, seeking compensation for the end of their independent history and politics, should turn to discover and appreciate their native literature.
“Unfortunately when they looked for it, they could not find it. There was none.”
Lord Dacre was one of the world’s most respected historians prior to his death, and was professor of Modern History at Oxford University for 23 years.
But his reputation was damaged when he claimed that forged diaries, purportedly written by Adolf Hitler and serialised in the Sunday Times, were authentic.
Michael Fry, an eminent Scottish historian, claimed Lord Dacre was not “a very reliable guide to Scottish history”, Tartan was worn in the Middle Ages and his claims about the kilt “prove absolutely nothing.”
“Lots of things emerge in history and just because we can’t pin down their origins it doesn’t follow from that everything about it is phoney,” Mr Fry said.
“There is a distinguished school of medieval Scottish literature, and poetry in something that is recognisably Scots was being written in the 14th century.”
telegraph.co.uk
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Scots history is riddled with “myth and falsehood”. |
All history is riddled with myth and falsehood, particularly "national" history.
| Quote: |
Its controversial findings debunk many of the cultural arguments for Scottish independence |
No they don't. The mainstream arguments for separatism, weak as they often are, have nothing to do with this banal tosh.
| Quote: | | an eminent historian |
Hugh Trevor-Roper was that and more: arguably the foremost historian of his generation. But I doubt he would be in the least bit interested in the utterly stupid slant taken by the above article.
_________________
It's murder every week at Firhill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Michael Fry, an eminent Scottish historian, claimed Lord Dacre was not “a very reliable guide to Scottish history”, Tartan was worn in the Middle Ages and his claims about the kilt “prove absolutely nothing.” |
nuff said.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I actually bought the Sunday times today, and I read this article. They describe the book as "explosive" and "controversial", but there is in fact nothing new or controversial about any of the actual examples they gave. So the "short" kilt in its modern form was probably devised by an English employer as a practical form of industrial work wear that was less likely to get caught in machinery than the traditional belted plaid his highland employees normally wore. So what? Nothing new in that story. So the "history" in the Declaration of Arbroath was a load of crap. So what? Most of us have known that for many years, it's not a history book, it's a historical document, there's a difference. I know journalists have to try to make a story, and I realise journalists for a Unionist paper like the Sunday times might think it smart to mock "Scotch myths", but the truth is that they are only mocking a straw man of their own creation, and in doing so they reveal the depths of their own ignorance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 4291
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Scots history is "riddled with myth and falsehood.& |
|
|
| Blackleaf wrote: | A new book, written by an eminent historian, says that the Scottish kilt was invented by an Englishman and that Scottish history is riddle with myth and falsehood...
Kilts invented by English in Lord Dacre's book
By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Correspondent
The Telegraph
18th May 2008
The Scottish kilt was actually invented by ab Englishman
Kilts were invented by an Englishman, according to an eminent historian who claims Scots history is riddled with “myth and falsehood”.
The last book written by the late Lord Dacre of Glanton also states that the Declaration of Arbroath, which confirmed Scotland’s independence in 1320, is plagued with inaccuracies and details of “imaginary” kings.
He argues that Scotland’s literary, cultural and political traditions, which are claimed to date back from Roman times, were largely invented in the 18th century.
The book, titled The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History, is to be published at the end of this month, five years after Lord Dacre died of cancer.
Its controversial findings debunk many of the cultural arguments for Scottish independence, and are likely to fuel the current heated political debate over the country’s constitutional future.
Lord Dacre, formerly Hugh Trevor-Roper, concludes in the book: “In Scotland, it seems to me, myth has played a far more important part in history than it has in England.
“Indeed, I believe the whole history of Scotland has been coloured by myth; and that myth, in Scotland, is never driven out by reality, or by reason, but lingers on until another myth has been discovered to replace it.”
He claims that the “myth” of the ancient Highland dress was perpetuated by historians to provide a symbol by which Scots could be universally identified, as well as to support the country’s textile industry.
The traditional dress of the Highlanders was in fact a long Irish shirt and a cloak or plaid, he states, and only the higher classes had woven in stripes and colours creating tartan.
“The kilt’s appearance can, in fact, be dated within a few years,” he reveals in the book.
“For it did not evolve, it was invented. Its inventor was an English Quaker from Lancashire, Thomas Rawlinson.”
He claims Mr Rawlinson decided to shorten belted plaids after workmen in the Highlands, where he was staying, said they were uncomfortable.
Scots are also accused in the book of fabricating their own literary tradition, culminating in the publication of The Works of Ossian.
These have been claimed to have been translated from ancient sources in Gaelic about the lives of Celtic heroes.
But historians have long suspected them of being a figment of the imagination of James Macpherson, the 18th-century Scottish poet who claimed to have translated them.
Lord Dacre also declares that when the Scots were looking for a writer and poet to rival Shakespeare following the Act of Union in 1707, they found nothing.
This led to ancient writings being forged and passed off as Scottish literature.
He concludes: “It was natural that Scots, seeking compensation for the end of their independent history and politics, should turn to discover and appreciate their native literature.
“Unfortunately when they looked for it, they could not find it. There was none.”
Lord Dacre was one of the world’s most respected historians prior to his death, and was professor of Modern History at Oxford University for 23 years.
But his reputation was damaged when he claimed that forged diaries, purportedly written by Adolf Hitler and serialised in the Sunday Times, were authentic.
Michael Fry, an eminent Scottish historian, claimed Lord Dacre was not “a very reliable guide to Scottish history”, Tartan was worn in the Middle Ages and his claims about the kilt “prove absolutely nothing.”
“Lots of things emerge in history and just because we can’t pin down their origins it doesn’t follow from that everything about it is phoney,” Mr Fry said.
“There is a distinguished school of medieval Scottish literature, and poetry in something that is recognisably Scots was being written in the 14th century.”
telegraph.co.uk |
None of this is new information and makes no difference whatsoever to the way people think about Scottish culture or history. Moving on...
_________________
"Gordon Brown mistook a glut of cheap money and a global bull market for his own administrative genius. In so doing, he wrecked the economy. Had the Prime Minister been running a company, instead of a country, he would be facing an inquiry into allegations of criminal negligence." - Jeff Randal
"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury." - Alexander Tytler
"There are four ways to spend money. A) You can spend your money on yourself, in which case you will strive for a mix of the best bargain and the best quality. B) You can spend your money on someone else, in which case you are still interested in a bargain, but the quality of the product or service becomes secondary. C) You can spend other people's money on yourself, in which case price is no object but quality becomes a great concern. D) Finally, you can spend other people's money on other people, in which case neither price nor quality is of great concern."
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
doodells
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Granada, Spain.
|
| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
and another breaking story just in...
The bagpipes were not invented by the Scotches!!
They probably originate from somewhere in the middle east. Spreading through the Roman empire, later arriving in Scotland and then spreading again through the British empire to the colonies. Although it is thought that the modern form of the 'great highland bagpipe' was devised and originated in Scotland.
A statement released earlier from the Scottish Government expressed the level of shock at this discovery. 'Had we known this fact we would never have become nationalists. The SNP have lied and cheated to everyone, including ourselves. And although we all still agree that Labour are completely incompetent and pish... Please Vote Labour.' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
|
| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| doodells wrote: | and another breaking story just in...
The bagpipes were not invented by the Scotches!!
They probably originate from somewhere in the middle east. Spreading through the Roman empire, later arriving in Scotland and then spreading again through the British empire to the colonies. Although it is thought that the modern form of the 'great highland bagpipe' was devised and originated in Scotland.
A statement released earlier from the Scottish Government expressed the level of shock at this discovery. 'Had we known this fact we would never have become nationalists. The SNP have lied and cheated to everyone, including ourselves. And although we all still agree that Labour are completely incompetent and pish... Please Vote Labour.' |
Wasn't the 'war instrument' of choice at the time when the romans arrived actually a large elongated horn? ... it's name slips my mind.
_________________
My blog - http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com
My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
|
| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Looking at your avatar, I'm surprised you've forgotten.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2950
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
carol
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 2950
Location: nestled in the hills of Perthshire
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
His LORDship was clearly an idiot.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
QuirkDale
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Book should be called "To Troll a Nation" :/
_________________
Greater men have done lesser deeds. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hazel
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 177
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only person who gets full credit for being the orginal inventor of anything will be found in another history book that starts with Genesis 1. Note that I didn't say fact, I said "history". All history is slanted and no one knows who invented anything nor how any "historical" situation really came to be.
That said, I have a magnificent book entitled "How Scotland Invented the World". Back to Genesis !?
_________________
Hazel
Chan ann air chall a tha gach neach air allaban. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hazel
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 177
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If someone has already posted this, my apologies but it did seem a bit relevant and a nice writing that was sent to me this morning. http://www.btinternet.com/~seacrest.house/
_________________
Hazel
Chan ann air chall a tha gach neach air allaban. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good one Hazel.
I wish the Scots were taught Scottish history, geography, scientists, music, recipees, gaelic etc. etc.
I guess it's a dream...
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
I'm familiar with John Kenny