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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Call His Bluff |
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Jim Murphy has never had a proper job. Even when he was officially a student, he had already started being a full time politician. I remember when I first heard of Jim Murphy, he was the secretary of the Scottish region of the National Union of Students. From that power base in student politics he went on to become the president of the NUS at a British level, and then he went straight into being a professional Labour Party politician. This was a well-worn career path followed by many other government ministers before him (Jack Straw, to give one other example).
From the Edinburgh Evening News, Wednesday 23 September: | Quote: | | Most Scots no longer want independence, says Murphy |
That is a very odd headline. Is Murphy saying that "most Scots" USED TO BE in favour of independence, but that there has now been a substantial drop in support for independence, leading to a situation where, although independence supporters used to be the majority, they are now the minority? If that is what he is saying, it must be the first time any Unionist politician has ever admitted that independence might ever be supported by the majority. As for Jim Murphy's "evidence" for a drop in support for independence, it is, of course, completely non-existent. It's just wishful thinking. Because of the re-introduction of a Scottish Parliament, the job of Secretary of State for Scotland is already much diminished from the sort of power that Willie Ross (for example) used to wield. Jim Murphy can't even claim to represent the Labour Party in Scotland, that's supposed to be Ian Gray's job. And if Scotland moves towards independence, then, instead of having a part-time job, Jim Murphy will be out of a job altogether. This man who has seen Labour politics as his path to greatness since he was neglecting his studies for student politics now sees independence as a threat to his chosen life career. | Quote: | | MOST Scots, including many who used to back independence, now say "thank goodness" Scotland is part of the UK, Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy claimed today. |
Jim Murphy was addressing a business convention, and it is true that one of Scotland's richest men, Tom Farmer, who has in the past indicated some degree of support for the SNP, now says now is not the time for independence. But "most" people in Scotland are not Scotland's richest men, and Tom Farmer will have exactly the same number of votes in a referendum as the rest of us will have. If one multi-millionaire is hedging his bets, that does NOT translate into "most Scots, including many who used to back independence" deciding they don't want independence. Again, what we have here is just wishful thinking by a politician who sees a threat to his job, without a shred of evidence to back up Jim Murphy's assertions.
There is only one way to settle what "most Scots" want, and, to quote a phrase made famous by one of Murphy's Labour colleagues, BRING IT ON .
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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I take it you'll be writing to the editor of the Edinburgh Evening News.
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| fair point, he should have said, 'most scots don't want independence'. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM.he is my MP, i like him. seen him doing his shopping a few times. pleasant and approachable man. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I take it you'll be writing to the editor of the Edinburgh Evening News. |
I don't live in, or anywhere near, Edinburgh, and we don't get the Edinburgh Evening News up here. I only know the Jim Murphy thing was in because somebody forwarded it to me. But if anybody who lives in the circulation area of the Edinburgh Evening News wants to write to them, or if anybody who lives anywhere feels like writing to them, if you consider anything I've written useful, feel free to make use of it and sign it as your own. Mind you, your letter would probably need to be shorter than what I've written here, to have a chance of getting published. |
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urchurdan
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 18
Location: SCOTLAND
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: Iain Gray |
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Gray is not an improvement on the last Scottish Labour Leader, that is why Murphy see's the need to prop him up - actually, it is lamentable that the Labour Party in Scotland is so short of able Politicians. I want EVERY Politician in Scotland to be at least showing some semblance of competence in what they do, the eyes of the world are on us. I used to think their finest minds were down in London, boy was I wrong, they all show the entire Labour Movement up in a pretty poor light.
Now, the Liberal/Democratic Party, I must have missed something here? I thought the world 'LIBERAL' implied freethinking among other things, I got that one wrong too, they are not so Liberal as the name applies, gagging their own Members????They seriously need to consider a name change....
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'You can smell Independence in the air now.' A quote from Ian Hamilton (one of the students who repatriated the Stone of Destiny) during a Lecture delivered at The Gathering in Edinburgh 2009. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | he is my MP, i like him |
Okay, so he's got your vote. And maybe he will get enough votes from other folk in your area to keep his seat at Westminster (for the time being). But that doesn't alter the truth of what I said | Quote: | | Jim Murphy has never had a proper job. Even when he was officially a student, he had already started being a full time politician. I remember when I first heard of Jim Murphy, he was the secretary of the Scottish region of the National Union of Students. From that power base in student politics he went on to become the president of the NUS at a British level, and then he went straight into being a professional Labour Party politician. |
Also, you liking him doesn't alter the fact that his evidence for claiming that | Quote: | | Most Scots no longer want independence |
is non-existent, and it doesn't alter his very obvious motive for such wishful thinking | Quote: | | This man who has seen Labour politics as his path to greatness since he was neglecting his studies for student politics now sees independence as a threat to his chosen life career. |
It also doesn't alter the fact that | Quote: | | "most" people in Scotland are not Scotland's richest men, and Tom Farmer will have exactly the same number of votes in a referendum as the rest of us will have. |
And, finally, it doesn't alter the fact that | Quote: | There is only one way to settle what "most Scots" want, and, to quote a phrase made famous by one of Murphy's Labour colleagues,
BRING IT ON . |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Call His Bluff |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | From the Edinburgh Evening News, Wednesday 23 September: | Quote: | | Most Scots no longer want independence, says Murphy |
That is a very odd headline. Is Murphy saying that "most Scots" USED TO BE in favour of independence |
Maybe... in the 17th century.
Jim Murphy doesn't control the headlines in the Edinburgh Evening News - although I suspect he, like most politicians, would like to.
| Quote: | | As for Jim Murphy's "evidence" for a drop in support for independence, it is, of course, completely non-existent. |
Polls. As opposed to you - who tell us what the Scottish people apparently want on the basis of nothing.
| Quote: | | Jim Murphy can't even claim to represent the Labour Party in Scotland, that's supposed to be Ian Gray's job. |
Nope, he's just leader in the Scottish Parliament.
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And if Scotland moves towards independence, then, instead of having a part-time job, Jim Murphy will be out of a job altogether. |
I suspect he's rather more worried about losing his seat at the next General Election.
| Quote: | | There is only one way to settle what "most Scots" want, and, to quote a phrase made famous by one of Murphy's Labour colleagues, BRING IT ON . |
Most of us don't see the point in a referendum where there is no demand for change. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Call His Bluff |
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| I wrote: | | As for Jim Murphy's "evidence" for a drop in support for independence, it is, of course, completely non-existent. |
We have been over this a dozen times before. For one thing, these so-called "polls" are not consistent. They tend to ask rather different questions, and they tend to come up with rather different results. For another thing, as you know, I take the view that the unofficial, selective, so-called "samples", conducted by various alleged "experts" who have made this their "career", which you call "polls", are nothing of the sort. The only genuine polls are actual votes cast. | Aventinian wrote: | | As opposed to you - who tell us what the Scottish people apparently want on the basis of nothing. |
That is exactly what I do NOT do. I say, what we need in order to establish what the Scottish people want is a referendum. The funny thing is, if Jim Murphy is so confident the Scottish people would reject independence, why is he so scared to ask them? Why does he not, like a previous spokesperson for Scottish Labour, want to " BRING IT ON " ? |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Call His Bluff |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | We have been over this a dozen times before. For one thing, these so-called "polls" are not consistent. They tend to ask rather different questions, and they tend to come up with rather different results. For another thing, as you know, I take the view that the unofficial, selective, so-called "samples", conducted by various alleged "experts" who have made this their "career", which you call "polls", are nothing of the sort. The only genuine polls are actual votes cast. |
Whether you want to attach much weight to it or not, it is still evidence, and indeed it is still what a lot of people - particularly politicians - set a great deal of store by.
| Quote: | | That is exactly what I do NOT do. I say, what we need in order to establish what the Scottish people want is a referendum. |
So you believe in holding referendums on an issue even where there is no apparent demand for change? Why not referendums on things like returning to the 11-plus selective educational system? Or the public smoking ban? Or public drinking bylaws? Or on whether we should have elected health boards?
| Quote: | | The funny thing is, if Jim Murphy is so confident the Scottish people would reject independence, why is he so scared to ask them? |
Because of people like you. Despite not bothering to demonstrate a demand for Scottish independence, you still pursue a referendum on it. There is nothing in your argument to stop you from calling for one every ten years or so, and that is a completely impossible way to run a country.
Moreover, without demonstrable demand, there is simply no need for it - Scottish politicians (at least, the majority of them) want to focus on their main policy platforms, which do not include referendums on independence. They will not do something that is time consuming, expensive and gives a platform to people with dodgy opinions just to satisfy whims. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Call His Bluff |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
Moreover, without demonstrable demand, there is simply no need for it - Scottish politicians (at least, the majority of them) want to focus on their main policy platforms, which do not include referendums on independence. They will not do something that is time consuming, expensive and gives a platform to people with dodgy opinions just to satisfy whims. |
thats exactly what nick cleg said thru the week. bloody good point it is as well. |
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Reluctant Hero
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 3180
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Call His Bluff |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Scottish politicians (at least, the majority of them) want to focus on their main policy platforms |
But just what is the main policy platforms for the other parties? They don't seem to stand for anything, except slaggin off Salmond and co. If they spent more time letting us know what they would do if they came to power, rather than telling us what the SNP are not doing, then they might get a few more votes.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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John Smeaton has announced he will be standing for the Glasgow North East by-election. Although officially standing as an "Independent", he will have the backing of the "Jury Team" grouping. This is an organisation set up by a multi-millionaire ex-Tory MP. Although candidates who receive the backing of Jury Team are classed as independent, they are expected to sign up to three basic political principles. One of these 3 principles is, to quote their website | Quote: | | The electorate should be asked their views in referendums on major issues and should be able to call for a referendum |
Which I must say seems quite reasonable to me, and I welcome Smeaton's support for a referendum on independence for Scotland. Although that is, obviously, the first referendum I would like to see, I agree that there should be other, future, referendums on "major issues". For example, our attitude towards Europe could certainly be a "major issue". | Aventinian wrote: | | you believe in holding referendums on an issue even where there is no apparent demand |
Have you ever had the experience of asking for something you want in a shop and being told "there's no demand for it"? Last time this happened to me, I replied "look at me. There is a demand for it - I'm demanding it". And of course it isn't just me. There have been marches, petitions, and demonstrations by folk demanding a referendum on independence for Scotland. Even your beloved "opinion polls" say there is widespread demand for a referendum. | Aventinian wrote: | | Why not referendums on things like returning to the 11-plus selective educational system? |
I have seen several hundred folk marching behind a pipe band from Princes Street up the mound and down the Royal Mile with banners demanding a referendum on independence. The day I see several hundred folk marching down the Royal Mile behind a pipe band with "Bring back the 11 plus" banners, I might start to take such a demand a bit more seriously. | Aventinian wrote: | | Or the public smoking ban? |
I'm an ex-smoker. I smoked for over twenty five years. Once, when I unthinkingly lit a cigarette in the house of a non-smoking friend, he responded by throwing a bucket of water over me, explaining that, when he saw smoke, he assumed there was no smoke without fire.  I was annoyed at him at the time, but I saw the funny side of it later. Quitting smoking was the best thing I ever did, and I would reccomend it to other smokers. I welcome the fact that many public places have become less unhealthy for me than they used to be. Most smokers appear to have accepted that it is right that public places should become more healthy for the non-smoking majority. If an unreasonable minority of smokers should feel strongly about their "right" to force their obnoxious fumes on me, then let them organise their own campaign, because they certainly won't get any encouragement from me. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | I have seen several hundred folk marching behind a pipe band from Princes Street up the mound and down the Royal Mile with banners demanding a referendum on independence. The day I see several hundred folk marching down the Royal Mile behind a pipe band with "Bring back the 11 plus" banners, I might start to take such a demand a bit more . |
what did you think when more people voted for more pro-union parties than 'FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM' parties in the last hollywood election? |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | what did you think when more people voted for more pro-union parties than 'FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM' parties in the last hollywood election? |
Without wishing to answer for Dave, and I wouldn't even attempt his inimitable style, but I do hate this arguement. Holyrood and Westminster are multi-issue ballots on who should lead the country, people vote for a host of reason, some vote in an automoton fashion in the same way as they always have ... and their parents before them.
In short it's not a referendum on independence, or anything else for that matter ... if it were, then an SNP majority in Scotland would mean independence, no referendum, no further ballot, simply a unilateral declaration of independence - very few people advocate this anymore.
It would amuse me though, after years of unionist, "but the SNP don't have an electoral majority", jibes if unilateral action was taken under such circumstances 
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | landg wrote: | | what did you think when more people voted for more pro-union parties than 'FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM' parties in the last hollywood election? |
Without wishing to answer for Dave, and I wouldn't even attempt his inimitable style, but I do hate this arguement. Holyrood and Westminster are multi-issue ballots on who should lead the country, people vote for a host of reason, some vote in an automoton fashion in the same way as they always have ... and their parents before them.
In short it's not a referendum on independence, or anything else for that matter ... if it were, then an SNP majority in Scotland would mean independence, no referendum, no further ballot, simply a unilateral declaration of independence - very few people advocate this anymore.
It would amuse me though, after years of unionist, "but the SNP don't have an electoral majority", jibes if unilateral action was taken under such circumstances |
What don't you like the fact that most voters in Scotland choose to vote for unionist parties rather than the SNP minority Government?
The SNP only agenda is going for an independence vote regardless of what other pressing matters need resolving in Scotland.
Time and again they have came out with sound bites to convince voters to vote SNP and have delivered nothing or failed to deliver election pledges.
The lastest being an independence vote during a recession when they know fine well it won't get through parliament wasting tax payers time and money considering an issue which is nothing more than a smoke screen to hide the Scottish Governments failure to deliver. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | an independence vote during a recession |
That's just the latest, totally hypocritical, excuse from folk who are against an independence vote ever, under any circumstances. | Ultra wrote: | | it won't get through parliament |
That remains to be seen. The leaders of the unionist parties huff and they puff, but they are too scared to allow their own MSPs a free vote on the matter. They have to resort to using the Whip. Some of them have said they "will not vote for a referendum" - but that's not the same thing as voting against, if you abstain, then you haven't voted for. Also, if you have a sick note from your doctor on that day, or if it is urgent that you go on a fact-finding mission to Barbados on that day, that's not the same thing as voting against either. And anybody who claims that they know for absolute certain, today, what the Lib Dems will do in a vote in four months' time, is kidding theirself.
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