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Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8106300.stm

A nice insight into how democracy works, EU-style. If at first you don't succeed, well, you bend the rules and try again.

Having rejected the Lisbon treaty by referendum already the Irish are being given a second chance to give the right answer... A whole raft of sweeteners and concessions has been added to the Irish copy of the treaty including autonomy over defence and abortion policy to get them to sign up.

These concessions will not apply to the countries that have already ratified. Any notion of the treaty being equal and fair thus disappear. As we know, the British people were promised a referendum and never got one. If we had been truly freedom-loving people we should have rammed the gates of Downing street over this. It's much much bigger than the poll tax. Perhaps there's something in the water...

The Tories have promised a referendum IF (and only IF) the treaty has still not been ratified by the Irish when they come to power. Hence the kerfuffle and hasty negotiating of Gordon Brown and the other apparatchiks to get the d****d Irish to sign the thing before the Tories get in.

The situation not only reveals once again the democratic deficit of the EU, but also the curious nature of referenda. The matter of who decides when another referendum is appropriate is rather crucial. If one ends up in a Quebec situation where support for independence is a knife-edge away from success, it can lead to quite some uncertainty, as referenda are held every few years on the issue. Plus of course, you don't apply a referendum if you know you are going to lose (just like GB).

Or in the case of Ireland, the authoritarian central state will impose its "democracy" until you give them the "right answer". I doubt very much that, had the Irish voted yes the first time, they would have been urged to reconsider by the Brussels monster a couple of years later.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Fidget · Standing in a Council Ward Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 556

Something interesting has happened. Judges in Germany's Constitutional Court have ruled that Germany should not ratify the Lisbon Treaty unless a law is passed that means German law overrules Brussels if and when necessary. Laughing

For anybody scratching their heads at this, can you scratch mine too please, I'm busy typing. Laughing

Holebender · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject:

If I were Irish and a supporter of the Lisbon Treaty I would vote against it in this referendum, just to teach my government to respect the result of the first (and should be only) referendum on the issue.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Fidget · Standing in a Council Ward Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 556

I would too. And for the same reason. It's incorrigible to be having another vote on the basis of bits being altered to suit whilst the people of other countries don't get any say at all.

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Agreed and agreed.

There's a very informative piece on the subject at wise up journal:

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=173

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Morph · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 916

Luke P · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 218

Now that Ireland has finally given them the right answer you can be sure they won't be getting a chance to change their minds in another 18 months time. Hope the Czechs will give us time to have a referendum.
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"Hath He not made us all in one island, compassed with one sea and of itself by nature indivisible?" James VI/I

Fidget · Standing in a Council Ward Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 556

magister ludi · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 225

I agree it stinks a bit when referendums become never-endums, but on the other hand, times change, so do circumstances, aren't people allowed to change their minds to reflect this?

Holebender · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:00 am Post subject:

Oh indeed they are... after a decent interval. We don't hold general elections any more frequently that every four years, so I think that's about the minimum time it would take for minds to change after due consideration and reflection.

The point is, now they have changed their minds, will the Irish have any more opportunities for further changes of opinion?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Shagpile · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 794

Holebender · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject:

I very much doubt if your last question would have anything but a "no" answer. The point of the exercise was to get the thing ratified, not to open it up to a whole new round.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso

Holebender · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: