Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites.
This has already been answered. All Question Time panels include one non-politician, and the reasons for choosing Bonnie Greer to fill that role on this occasion are obvious.
fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race
That "defined by race" is important. The Scottish National Party is obviously quite keen on Scottish identity, but it encourages multi-ethnicity and it formed "New Scots For Independence" with the intention of showing that you can be an immigrant and play a full part in Scottish political life. By contrast, the BNP has whites-only membership rules and is only thinking about maybe changing them now because they've been told they aren't a legal party if they don't. Given the BNP's history, any change will be purely cosmetic, and, in view of the BNP's blatant racism, they are unlikely to attract much non-white support.
Quote:
who believe in an authoritarian mono-culture
Again, this certainly applies to the BNP. So far as they are concerned, only one hundred percent red-white-and-blue Britishness should be tolerated. If the BNP ever got anywhere near power, they would act against the SNP and Plaid Cymru as well as against muslims, jews, socialists, liberals, and just about anybody who didn't fit in with their authoritarian mono-culture. In fact some of their activists can't wait for power, and already do this in an "unofficial" sort of way.
Quote:
social-darwinism
An un-scientific belief which Darwin himself, and most scientists following in his footsteps, would have found repellent
Quote:
and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that.
Yes. The only thing I think you missed out is the fascist belief in a Strong Leader. It was Mussolini's party in Italy which first used the term "fascist", and they saw Mussolini as their Strong Leader. Sir Oswald Mosley followed Mussolini's example, with his British Union of Fascists, as did Adolf Hitler in Germany. Adolf's party didn't include the Italian word "fascist" in its title, it was called the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party, but it had all of the same characteristics by the bucketload. As does the BNP.
National Socialist German Workers Party _________________ "My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso
Okay, I stand corrected on that point. So, here is the revised version of what I had to say. Does anybody see any mistakes in the main point I was making about the nature of fascism?
Rinty wrote:
fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race
That "defined by race" is important. The Scottish National Party is obviously quite keen on Scottish identity, but it encourages multi-ethnicity and it formed "New Scots For Independence" with the intention of showing that you can be an immigrant and play a full part in Scottish political life. By contrast, the BNP has whites-only membership rules and is only thinking about maybe changing them now because they've been told they aren't a legal party if they don't. Given the BNP's history, any change will be purely cosmetic, and, in view of the BNP's blatant racism, they are unlikely to attract much non-white support.
Quote:
who believe in an authoritarian mono-culture
Again, this certainly applies to the BNP. So far as they are concerned, only one hundred percent red-white-and-blue Britishness should be tolerated. If the BNP ever got anywhere near power, they would act against the SNP and Plaid Cymru as well as against muslims, jews, socialists, liberals, and just about anybody who didn't fit in with their authoritarian mono-culture. In fact some of their activists can't wait for power, and already do this in an "unofficial" sort of way.
Quote:
social-darwinism
An un-scientific belief which Darwin himself, and most scientists following in his footsteps, would have found repellent
Quote:
and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that.
Yes. The only thing I think you missed out is the fascist belief in a Strong Leader. It was Mussolini's party in Italy which first used the term "fascist", and they saw Mussolini as their Strong Leader. Sir Oswald Mosley followed Mussolini's example, with his British Union of Fascists, as did Adolf Hitler in Germany. Adolf's party didn't include the Italian word "fascist" in its title, it was called the National Socialist German Workers Party, but it had all of the same characteristics by the bucketload. As does the BNP.
This was a question referring to my statement that fascism was a term that was 'loosely' used.
No, I dont wonder why this is, I think i is pretty obvious, fascism is synonymous with authoritarianism so any authoritarian boss is called this because it is an exageration of his position, similar to using atilla the hun.
Also, I would think it is often due to a misunderstanding of the original term and/or the groups that grew under that banner.
I think its pretty obvious that the BNP are fascists, it might be used inappropriately in many cases, but not this time.
Last edited by Rinty on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I realise you were giving that as an example of the extremely "loose" way this term tends to get used, rather than saying that's what you think yourself, Rinty.
The statement that the West Indies is a group of islands is true, but the statement that a group of islands is the West Indies is not true. Although the West Indies is a group of islands, there are many groups of islands, and not all of them are the West Indies. Similarly, it is true that all fascism is authoritarian, but it is not true that anything authoritarian is automatically fascism. Also, it is true that fascism tends to be violent, but it is not true that all violence is fascism. There are instance of every political and religious ideology using violence - just look at how the forces of democracy bombed and blasted their way from the Normandy beaches to the heartland of Germany. Communism, conservatism, liberalism, socialism, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, even Buddhists, all use violence. So neither authoritarianism nor violence is a DEFINING characteristic of fascism.
True defining characteristics of fascism, which apply to ALL of the original fascist organisations (Mussolini's fascists in Italy, the British Union of Fascists, and the German Nazis) are that it is based on a national identity DEFINED BY RACE, it is linked with a national religion OR mythology, it involves a desire to impose an authoritarian mono-culture, it involves social darwinism, and, of course, it involves a belief in a Strong Leader. Loads of different political and religious movements have SOME of these characteristics. Only fascism has them all.
And there can be little doubt the BNP fits the description.
So far, here as everywhere people have largely attacked the assumption of existing fascism and the BNP as a personality so to speak.
I don't see fascist policies on their websites and I do see 22% support for them in England.
Still, nobody is attacking their policies rather they attack what they perceive as the threat of fascism. _________________ Every man dies, not every man really lives.
So far, here as everywhere people have largely attacked the assumption of existing fascism and the BNP as a personality so to speak.
Fascism does exist. It has had a continuous existence since the 1930s. In the case of Nick Griffin, his family have been involved with fascism since his granddaddy was in the British Union of Fascists. Nick was taken to his first National Front meeting by daddy at age 15, he founded the Young NF when at Cambridge University, he became National Organiser of the National Front, when the NF split up into different fascist groupings he joined first one, and then later another one, the BNP. But although fascism has taken various forms over the years, it has a continuous existence since the 1930s. Fascism has certain defining characteristics, which have been set out here. The BNP meets all of them.
Stevie wrote:
I don't see fascist policies on their websites
I don't think you know what fascism is.
Stevie wrote:
I do see 22% support for them in England.
No, you don't.
What you saw was an opinion poll which appeared to suggest that 22 percent might consider voting for them. However, that very same opinion poll suggested that the percentage who WOULD vote for them was 4%. It remains to be seen what percentage will actually vote for them when it comes to a real poll. In any case, regardless of the level of support for fascism, fascism should always be opposed.
many of the most vicious criminals seem to be foreign.
Of course they are. This is true in all countries. In all countries, it's folk from somewhere else who are most likely to be vicious criminals.
jamesieboy wrote:
the liberal establishment and the metropolitan elite
That's funny. I could've sworn posh Home Counties boarding school and Cambridge toff Nicky Griffin used exactly that same phrase on the BBC. What are you, a parrot?
The nonsense part is that people are suggesting that the BNP are going to have a MASSIVE 20% rise in polling come the GE, it won't happen, it's a nonsense notion.
To try and suggest that this will translate into actual polling is utterly ridiculous, really, people may sympathise with the way Griffin was treated (although I can't imagine why), they may even briefly consider voting for his party but I think you'll find that on reflection all but a minority of around 2% will actually realise that the party is odious and despicable.
The fact that a poll which asks about specific polling intentions rather than fluffy questions about would you consider this or that should show the lie in the original poll being discussed.
The British National Party is not a fascist or racist party but a democratic political party, pledged to uphold the democratic principles of our Parliament. In fact the British National Party is the only political party that will restore to the British people our ancient freedoms and inherited liberties as are denoted in Magna Carta and the 1688 Bill of Rights which have been compromised by Britain’s membership of the European Union. _________________ Britain First
our ancient freedoms and inherited liberties as are denoted in Magna Carta
Strangely enough, the extreme Right in the USA also have an odd fondness for that document intended to consolidate the power of the barons and the aristocracy over their serfs and their slaves. But at least they do have a sort of excuse, the legal system of the USA was based on that of England. The Scottish legal system, on the other hand, wasn't.
You obviously don't know much about Scotland, or Scottish history, or Scottish law, "True Brit".
Magna Carta has NEVER applied here.
It is a purely English document without any application in Scottish law or Scottish life whatsoever.
The British National Party is not a fascist or racist party
The "racist" bit is undeniable. Any party whose membership rules state that some people will be excluded from membership on the grounds of race is, by definition, a racist party. You might as well try to claim that the Ku Klux Klan is not a racist organisation. Even your party Leader has acknowledged that the membership rules of the BNP are in breach of the UK's anti-discrimination laws. He says the rules will be changed, but obviously that will take time, and will have to be done at a party conference, and there might be some opposition from within the party to such a change. In any case, even if the rule change does eventually go ahead, it will only be happening as a formal gesture to keep the party "legal". It won't really change the fundamentally racist nature of the BNP.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
