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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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You know about it? Does that mean you weren't telling the truth when you said "it's all a bit quiet"?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Well it is a bit quiet. The only time I really hear about it at the moment is on here. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| that's all about bickering. Where is the referendum? Where's the eurphoria heralding 2010 and the referendum on Scottish independence? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Every one of those articles is about the referendum. Did you bother to look at any of the links? Just try the first one; it is an article written by Mike Russell MSP for tomorrow's Scotland on Sunday, and it is only about the referendum. If you haven't heard much about it you've been going around with your eyes, ears, and mind closed.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| yes... 'about' being the operative word. Bit differerent from 'having'. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | I know about the plans for a referendum bill next year.. which isn't quite the same as having a referendum next year |
No, it isn't quite the same. The reason it isn't quite the same is because the legislation has to be passed by the Scottish Parliament, and neither the Labour Party nor the LibDems nor the Tories want a referendum. HOWEVER , them not wanting a referendum is not quite the same thing as them actually voting against one. They know that would be a very unpopular move and could cost some of their MSPs their seats. Some Labour MSPs , and some LibDem MSPs, maybe even a couple of Tory MSPs, are going to agonise over being forced by the party whips to vote against consulting the people through a democratic referendum on self-determination. They would much rather the legislation is not put before them in the first place. But it will be, and they will then have to decide whether to vote against, or vote for, or abstain, or produce a sick note from their doctor or from their mum on that day. The truth is, nobody knows what is going to happen when the legislation is put to the vote. The Labour Party have said that they "won't support" a referendum, but note that "won't support" is not the same thing as "will vote against" - it could mean abstention, and abstention could mean the bill is passed. As for the LibDems, not even they know what they are going to do in three months' time. The only thing we can say for certain is that legislation for a referendum will be presented to the Scottish Parliament. I think that legislation stands a pretty good chance of passing. If it passes, then there will be a NON-PARTY-POLITICAL campaign for a pro-independence vote in the referendum. We know that many people who don't vote for the SNP dislike some of that party's OTHER policies, or they don't like the look of Alex Salmond's smug face, but this won't be about electing any political party, or any politician, it will just be about answering a question about a single issue. We know that some folk who don't vote SNP, and don't vote for any of the smaller pro-independence parties (the Greens, SSP, Solidarity) either, are, nevertheless, in favour of independence. There are Labour voters who are pro-independence - I have met some of them. There are Liberal Democrats who are pro-independence. There are even some Tories who are pro-independence. If the referendum campaign is fought on a non-party-political basis, then it can deliver a decisive vote for independence. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Does all that mean that the SNP aren't having a referendum on independence next year?
yes or no will suffice. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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It means the SNP will introduce a bill for a referendum next year. It will be up to the members of the Scottish Parliament whether or not that bill is passed. That's how parliamentary democracies work.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | Does all that mean that the SNP aren't having a referendum on independence next year?
yes or no will suffice. |
Both "yes" and "no" would be misleading answers. If you want the truth expressed in a single word, that word would have to be "maybe" - because yes, the SNP want a referendum next year, but nobody knows for sure whether the legislation will be passed by the Scottish Parliament or not. Personally, I think there is a very good chance that the legislation will pass, and that we will have a referendum next year. But I can't be sure. Nobody can be sure. |
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Red Justice
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 758
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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The right to choose Scottish Freedom
The article in Scotland On Sunday by Mike Russell is most welcome he writes: It is no longer tenable for any democratic party in Scotland to stand in the way of that right to choose and as time goes by, the confused signals from other parties indicate that they, too, realise there cannot be an indefinite delay in allowing the people to have their say.
The latest example of that is the internal debate within the Scottish Liberal Democrats, who have now convened a special session at their autumn conference next week to debate the party's stance on a referendum That has come about, seemingly, because of deep disquiet in Lib Dem ranks, especially at the grass-roots level, about the position taken by the party leadership in standing against a vote of the people. It is, indeed, passing strange that a party whose very name proclaims its democratic credentials and which ordinarily favours referenda on a range of issues should have thus far proved so resolutely opposed to a referendum on Scotland's future.
As Scottish Republican Socialists we should back the wishes of two-thirds of the Scottish people to be allowed a referendum on independence. Russell also goes on to say "The London parties would do well to heed the words of Irish home rule campaigner Charles Stewart Parnell, whose observation that no-one "has the right to fix the boundary of the march of a nation" prefaced the Scottish Government's first white paper on the constitution in August 2007.
It is clear the people of Scotland want to have a choice on their future, and we intend to give them the chance to seize the benefits that only independence can bring."
Scottish Republican Socialists most welcome the SNP initiative but should warn that attempts to get the Referendum Bill passed in Holyrood could mean accepting a third option on the ballot paper of more fiscal powers from Calman Commission. Most people including the SNP leader Alex Salmond would be more comfortable with a straight choice Yes/No referendum on independence.
And here lies the dilemma of constitutional nationalism that fights as a minority government in parliament.
What is clear is the next general election to Westminster could mean the Tories find themselves without all out victory but instead a hung parliament while unlikely to have any representation in Scotland.
Interesting times certainly lie ahead in the Scottish and London parliaments in 2010. but as a true republican socialist I will not put my faith in parliamentary politics but remain true to revolutionary politics to effect real change and thus a Workers Republic.
Larry
Scottish Republican Socialist Newsletter
http://dawnofliberation.blogspot.com/
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“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: |
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So... how much change has your revolutionary politics delivered so far?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I voted yes-yes because it was all that was on offer. Which exactly illustrates what I was saying; my vote did not reflect my true preference, only what I considered to be the better of the choices available. On the basis that I was not alone in my preferences, you cannot say that the votes cast in the 1997 referendum indicate the genuine wishes of Scotland's population. |
Neither will any referendum, poll or survey that collects quantitative information.
Unfortunately, it's rather impractical to ask a few million people to write a wee essay on how they'd like to be governed and post it off to St Andrew's House. Although I suppose that's rather close to what the Calman Commission did, albeit without an expectation of a response on such a scale. |
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mac
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: It really depends on how it's phrased, tbh |
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sorry, AV, but what I mean is that being asked would you like haggis and chips for your tea? is different from being asked do you like haggis?
been handed half a bootlle of red wine and am not making any...
i dont feel well - please help 
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"Scotland's stunningly beautiful, and utterly captivating capital city, Edinburgh" |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | The article in Scotland On Sunday by Mike Russell is most welcome he writes: It is no longer tenable for any democratic party in Scotland to stand in the way of that right to choose and as time goes by, the confused signals from other parties indicate that they, too, realise there cannot be an indefinite delay in allowing the people to have their say. |
I stand against it, at the very least until the Scottish Parliament has a nationalist majority who can then petition the Parliament of the United Kingdom for such a referendum. But I also accept that, for whatever reason, the Lib Dems, Labour and the Conservatives seem unwilling to state that.
They should. It is the only way to cure the 'uncertainty' which vexes them so.
| Quote: | | It is, indeed, passing strange that a party whose very name proclaims its democratic credentials and which ordinarily favours referenda on a range of issues should have thus far proved so resolutely opposed to a referendum on Scotland's future. |
Secession is rarely if ever democratic; what the SNP suggests is fundamentally counter-democratic.
| Quote: | | Russell also goes on to say "The London parties would do well to heed the words of Irish home rule campaigner Charles Stewart Parnell, whose observation that no-one "has the right to fix the boundary of the march of a nation" prefaced the Scottish Government's first white paper on the constitution in August 2007. |
Yes, 'the march' of nationalism sure did Ireland a lot of good...
The state has that right, as the guardian of individual liberties, to deny those who seek to violate them from doing so. Nationalist politics are, as I've said before, a fundamental threat to liberalism.
| Quote: | | What is clear is the next general election to Westminster could mean the Tories find themselves without all out victory but instead a hung parliament while unlikely to have any representation in Scotland. |
It's not remotely likely that they will be without representation in Scotland: indeed, all polls have shown they will gain seats, albeit modestly. Moreover, the chance of a hung parliament is ever decreasing - and if the SNP really believe that the two major parties will trust them with any sort of agreement or authority, then they are very, very mistaken.
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