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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Who's to say they won't, that's the point.
It's not any trouble at all, it's a pleasure.
Of course the SNP will campaign because they believe in it unlike the Brits who 'enter politics' to gain position and jobs for the boys.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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The world is full of independent countries with populations which are just clamouring to give up their independence and join in an incorporating union with a bigger neighbour... not!
If the population of an independent Scotland ever willingly gave up their independence to join with another country, I would equally willingly renounce my citizenship and leave them to it while I lived out my days somewhere else.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | The world is full of independent countries with populations which are just clamouring to give up their independence and join in an incorporating union with a bigger neighbour... not!
If the population of an independent Scotland ever willingly gave up their independence to join with another country, I would equally willingly renounce my citizenship and leave them to it while I lived out my days somewhere else. |
Ever heard of "independence" in Europe? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I had a wee bet on with myself regarding how many posts it would take before that one came up. I won.
Do you understand the difference between joining an international group of independent states and having your country join an incorporating union with a larger neighbour? Your example doesn't meet the criteria I set.
Personally I am not particularly keen on EU membership, but there are a few facts which I recognise about it; Scotland is already in the EU, only as a region and not as a full member. Being a full member would be an improvement on our current status. Scotland is not in a position to determine whether or not to be an EU member at the moment; Scotland's status will be determined by the UK, regardless of what Scotland's population wants. The only way Scotland's population will ever be in any position to decide on EU membership is to leave the UK.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5574
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | But you are a natural conservative, and you consider that the UK, while not necessarily perfectly democratic, is sufficiently so to satisfy you. |
It depends what you mean by 'to satisfy' - am I particularly satisfied with things as they are now? Quite probably not. Not the the level that I'm going to take up arms against the state and shoot the postman or anything like that, but I'm not particularly happy.
Whilst being a conservative, I am also a radical - those two concepts are not contradictory: I seek change, a lot of it, but I seek it within the existing constitutional framework and with the appropriate time for matters to be discussed and considered, rather than hastily thrown into place. That doesn't mean I'm satisfied, it's just that I acknowledge that change is something best done in a certain way.
I am the Liberal Conservatives' Fabian movement. 
| Quote: | | In the case of Scotland, it IS possible to have government from Edinburgh, rather from London. Therefore, I am a supporter of independence, but have never described myself as a Scottish Nationalist. |
Why then emphasise the Scottish dimension? Why not advocate the regions of Scotland to be resurrected and to become sovereign? By the standards which you impose on London - rather lessened by the advancement of science from the days where Walter Scott said that our MPs cannot be peebled with stones from that length - Edinburgh is a distant capital to plenty of Scotland. Your native Angus may not be too distant, but what of those in Aberdeenshire, or Banffshire, or Shetland, or Sutherland? Is Edinburgh not a distant seat of government to them? |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5574
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | If the population of an independent Scotland ever willingly gave up their independence to join with another country, I would equally willingly renounce my citizenship and leave them to it while I lived out my days somewhere else. |
So your Scottishness is dependent on everyone agreeing with you? Good luck with that.
Does this offer include you losing an independence referendum? You may have found something that will make me support one.
| Holebender wrote: | | Do you understand the difference between joining an international group of independent states and having your country join an incorporating union with a larger neighbour? Your example doesn't meet the criteria I set. |
I think the real question is: do you?
After all, you've failed time and again to set an objective definition of independence and indeed to present a convincing case against a federal union on that basis. It is a tremendous double-standard that you will accept Scotland as independent within a European Union and not within a British Union.
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| chicmac wrote: | | The last time you rubbished the idea of UN supremacy in international law I gave several examples of agreements and treaties where this was manifestly stated and invited you to go argue the toss with the UN or on those forums where these matters are discussed. |
I never suggested anything of the sort. What I pointed out is that a right to self-determination does not entail a right to secession from an established state. You've simply taken a concept that you know little about and adjusted the meaning to fit in with your barmy political views. Unfortunately for you, that's now how the law works.
The British people, including the Scottish, self-determine within the UK. Secessionists and nationalists, whilst often using the rhetoric of self-determination, actually seek to reduce that right in setting up a nationalist state with a cultural, ethnic, religious or racial orthodoxy.
| Quote: | | I trust in the intervening period of silence from you, you have succeeded in having the Treaty of Rome, UN Charter etc, rewritten and will presently furnish us with URLs making this accomplishment clear. |
Quite the contrary, I studied all of them at university years ago. I know quite a bit about international law; it appears you do not. |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I had a wee bet on with myself regarding how many posts it would take before that one came up. I won. |
I hope you gave yourself a good slap on the back...
| Quote: | | Do you understand the difference between joining an international group of independent states and having your country join an incorporating union with a larger neighbour? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | Your example doesn't meet the criteria I set. |
I'm not particularly bothered with meeting criteria you set. I am bothered about the inconsistency in your argument that sees you willing to cede sovereignty to Brussels, but not share sovereignty*, as we have done for 400 years, with the others on this small island.
*And, in the process, provide a united voice in Brussels to the advantage of us all. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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How is an existing member remaining a member of the EU ceding sovereignty to Brussels? Explain how anything changes for the worse when a region of a full member of the EU becomes a full member in its own right?
Don't you think that, in most cases, Scotland's interests will coincide with the remaining UK's interests in the EU? Don't you think two member states cooperating, with their two lots of representation in the Council of Ministers, the European Commission, the European Parliament, would be more effective than a single member? And where Scotland's interests do no match those of the UK, how would Scotland's interests be best served?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | If the population of an independent Scotland ever willingly gave up their independence to join with another country, I would equally willingly renounce my citizenship and leave them to it while I lived out my days somewhere else. |
So your Scottishness is dependent on everyone agreeing with you? Good luck with that.
Does this offer include you losing an independence referendum? You may have found something that will make me support one. |
My Scottishness is not dependent on anyone agreeing with me. However, if my fellow Scots prove themselves so pathetic that they'd throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity I would turn my back on them in disgust. This might also apply to a referendum result if the vote against independence were decisive enough to convince me the position was hopeless. I would sooner count myself among those to whom looking after their own affairs is important enough that they'd resist any effort to usurp that right than be numbered among a bunch of dependent wimps who'd sooner live with their mammies than stand on their own feet.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | Do you understand the difference between joining an international group of independent states and having your country join an incorporating union with a larger neighbour? Your example doesn't meet the criteria I set. |
I think the real question is: do you?
After all, you've failed time and again to set an objective definition of independence and indeed to present a convincing case against a federal union on that basis. It is a tremendous double-standard that you will accept Scotland as independent within a European Union and not within a British Union. |
Sigh... we have been over this so many times but, as usual, you'd sooner look for straw men to argue against than actually pay attention to what is being said.
Independence: freedom from being governed or ruled by another country.
A federal UK would have one member state with a massive majority over all the other member states combined so it cannot work. It would simply be a dictatorship of the one member state which leaves all the others powerless.
Please explain this concept of Scotland being independent within a British Union.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5574
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | My Scottishness is not dependent on anyone agreeing with me. However, if my fellow Scots prove themselves so pathetic that they'd throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity I would turn my back on them in disgust. |
Oh, excellent.
| Quote: | | This might also apply to a referendum result if the vote against independence were decisive enough to convince me the position was hopeless. I would sooner count myself among those to whom looking after their own affairs is important enough that they'd resist any effort to usurp that right than be numbered among a bunch of dependent wimps who'd sooner live with their mammies than stand on their own feet. |
You're personifying an abstract again. The state is not 'you', indeed the state exists absolutely to take away your ability to make decisions for yourself - the flags it flies are irrelevant.
| Quote: | Sigh... we have been over this so many times but, as usual, you'd sooner look for straw men to argue against than actually pay attention to what is being said.
Independence: freedom from being governed or ruled by another country |
Scotland is then independent - it is not governed or ruled by another country, but rather as part of a unified polity. Glory be, everyone's a winner.
| Quote: | | A federal UK would have one member state with a massive majority over all the other member states combined so it cannot work. It would simply be a dictatorship of the one member state which leaves all the others powerless. |
Well, I disagree, but that's really an argument for another day...
| Quote: | | Please explain this concept of Scotland being independent within a British Union. |
If you can accept Scotland as being 'independent' whilst having a higher-level polity (in this case the EU) passing laws with legislative primacy, having judicial supremacy, common citizenship, a directly-elected legislature passing directly-effective laws - all from Brussels - then tell me why the same cannot be true of similar institutions based in London?
| Holebender wrote: | | How is an existing member remaining a member of the EU ceding sovereignty to Brussels? |
An independent Scotland would not be an 'existing member' of the European Union. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | I would sooner count myself among those to whom looking after their own affairs is important enough that they'd resist any effort to usurp that right than be numbered among a bunch of dependent wimps who'd sooner live with their mammies than stand on their own feet. |
You're personifying an abstract again. The state is not 'you', indeed the state exists absolutely to take away your ability to make decisions for yourself - the flags it flies are irrelevant. |
I completely disagree with you. I am talking about the population, not the state. If Scotland's population prove to be as pathetic as I've indicated above I'd sooner live among people who are prepared to solve their own problems.
However, I happen to believe that Scotland's population will jump at the chance to govern themselves and solve their own problems - if they are only given the chance to vote for it.
The rest of your post is rubbish. No surprise there.
Scotland is governed by the UK and is therefore not independent.
If you're willing to expand and defend your ideas about federalism, start a thread and we'll discuss it. I know you cannot construct a workable federal UK and I'll be happy to tell you why.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: |
Scotland is governed by the UK and is therefore not independent.
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Scotland is part of the UK, which is independent from other nation states. The UK is a democracy, so each vote, from each individual, in whichever constituent part carries the same weight (theoretically). The relationship is governed by a treaty of union, so Scotland is a voluntary and legal constituent part of an independent democratic state, as is Wales and Renfrewshire....
.....so to say that Scotland is "governed by the UK" is not true. In fact it is meaningless in context...
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Neither a nationalist nor a unionist be. http://braveheart-braveheartsblog.blogspot.com/ |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Scotland is part of the UK |
The world is full of states which used to be part of other states. The map of Europe today contains about twenty states that didn't exist when I was a young man. We can be pretty sure that any particular map at any particular time is not the last word. | Braveheart wrote: | | legal constituent part |
| Braveheart wrote: | | The relationship is governed by a treaty of union |
You are sounding like a lawyer, and a pretty stuffy, unimaginative lawyer at that. When the United States of America declared independence from Britain, that was an illegal act. But just seven years later, the British government changed its mind, and decided the USA's Declaration of Independence was legal after all. Laws get made and un-made all the time. That's political reality. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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i've only really dipped in and scanned this thread
1. because the union is NOT divided.
2. eh thats it.
3. bit like saying turtles are actually comets with a nice patterned tie on.
4. just checked google news, the union is still here.
5. won't be back to this stoopit thread. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | the union is NOT divided |
In addition to your other problems, "landg", I suggest you need your eyes tested. The title of this thread is "The Union Dividend".
"Dividend" and "Divided" are two completely different words with completely different meanings. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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could have sworn it said divided, interesting actually, when a place or a thing or being has a certain mindset you expect behaviour of them/it due to repetition.thats pretty basic psychology as it happens.
that happened here, brief scan and assumed, due to the history of this place it said divided.
says a lot you know, about oor-freedomland. |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 800
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Ever heard of "independence" in Europe? |
Sums up the UK then, also France Germany italy Check Republic Denmark NL luxembourg etc......
Also Switzerland Norway |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | The title of this thread is "The Union Dividend". |
Quite a bizarre thread title I thought since the union can't pay itself a dividend. Can it? |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 800
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Dave Coull wrote: | | The title of this thread is "The Union Dividend". |
Quite a bizarre thread title I thought since the union can't pay itself a dividend. Can it? |
Well the politicians get a handsome dividend. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: |
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the dividen of living in the union has been good to me, my family, my friends and colleagues.
simples.
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